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Ronald Reagan's failures

Discussion in 'Politics, philosophy and religion' started by Mrs.JockEwing, Jun 21, 2008.

  1. Mrs.JockEwing

    Mrs.JockEwing Don't Touch My Junk

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    http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory12.html

    Ronald Reagan’s recent passing has brought on a barrage of praise, both selective and exaggerated, from people across the political spectrum.

    Conservatives, liberals, neo-cons and libertarians have shared their thoughts on the trumpeted legacy of America’s Great Communicator.

    Most of the honest praise has focused on his rhetoric, much of which, I admit, was very appealing, and certainly more eloquent than what we’d expect to hear from the White House these days.

    Reagan talked a good talk about shrinking the government, cutting taxes and spending. He gave sermons against Communism. He spoke well of liberty, individualism, and limited state power.

    He condemned conscription. He brandished the Constitution. He espoused capitalism.

    But what did he do?

    As governor of California and president of the United States, he enacted policies that, in the main, greatly expanded the role and size of government.

    As governor, he oversaw the largest tax increase in Californian history. Democratic Governor Jerry Brown cut back the tax rate when he came to office.

    As president, Reagan expanded the federal government by about 90%.

    Ah, but this was for defense, one might protest. And defense spending, according to the conventional wisdom, doesn’t count for some reason. In fact, defense spending is good for a "capitalist" economy, even though it was supposedly defense spending that brought down the Soviet economy. (I wonder if Reagan’s increases in California’s spending when he was governor can be attributed to a good-faith effort on his part to beat Oregon and Nevada in an arms race.)

    All in all, Reagan allowed the welfare state to enlarge and the military budget to explode, causing monstrous budget deficits and government growth that dwarfs government growth under Clinton, even when Clinton had a Democratic Congress. Reagan’s tax cuts notwithstanding (some of which he reversed), the state grew fat and its growth will inevitably be financed through inflation or tax increases (unless the state defaults).

    Reagan also bombed Libya, put the "war" in War on Drugs, allowed the continuation of Selective Service registration (despite his campaign promise to end it), helped the Khmer Rouge terrorize Thailand, imposed brutal trade sanctions on Nicaragua, funded the murderous brutal Contras, sold missiles to Iran, gave assistance to Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, and lied to the American people.

    That he did all these things in the name of "freedom," "capitalism," "small government," and "liberty" renders his legacy, in my opinion, all the more insidious. If bad Reaganesque policies continue to have a pass because of their superficial rhetorical selling points, American liberty will have suffered, not strengthened, because of him.

    Many Americans say Reagan was a man of principle, regardless of what else we might think of him. And yet I’ve heard few examples of how he acted on his principles. More often, I hear excuses that he had a principled ideology but failed to follow through.

    Still, his rhetoric probably did bring a fair number of people around to adopting some good values. And even some of his policies – such as pulling out of Lebanon after terrorists bombed the Marine base in Beirut, lifting oil price controls, continuing Carter’s deregulation – were quite admirable, especially by today’s standards.

    By and large, however, Reagan’s words are used to advance the power of the state. Many in today’s War Party, previously critical of Reagan’s relative restraint, claim that Reagan would have approved of their pet war in Iraq, when we do not know one way or the other if that is true.

    They say Reagan made them revere liberty, and that their reverence towards liberty leads them to revere war.

    They say that his words about the Soviet Union are applicable today, and that what we face now is Cold War II.

    They say that Clinton and even Bush the Second haven’t sufficiently followed Reagan’s policy of bloated military spending and foreign bellicosity.

    They have in the past compared him to Thomas Jefferson, when all the two presidents had in common was that their words were better than their presidencies. (Even this is a weak comparison, seeing as how President Jefferson actually shrank the government.)

    Today’s champions of neo-Reaganism invoke the legacy of a man who practiced libertarian rhetoric and carried out a predominately statist agenda, and they do it to advance an agenda even more statist than Reagan’s.

    As much as I think certain misanthropes distort and twist Reaganism to their devious purposes, it is no surprise that the Gipper would have such a vile following. No symbol is more useful in the advocacy of empire than a respected leader who glorified freedom even as he trampled it.

    I can’t speak of Reagan the man, whom I never knew. It seems clear, however, that freedom lovers who mourn his passing should likewise mourn his legacy, which, as it stands, is hardly a cause for celebration.

    June 10, 2004

    http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0607-09.htm

    Ronald Reagan's Legacy
    by Mark Weisbrot

    Ronald Reagan was a man who fought for what he believed in, and he changed the world more than probably any American in the twentieth century. He changed not only the conservative movement, the Republican party, his country and the world -- but also his opponents, known as liberals. As a result of his achievements, the typical liberal Member of Congress today sits to the right of Richard Nixon on a number of economic issues, including tax policy.

    The Great Communicator, as he was called, was capable of charming millions of Americans with his soothing, grandfatherly demeanor. In 1984 there were polls indicating that most of those who voted to re-elect him disagreed with him on the issues. In short, the "Reagan revolution" would probably never have happened without his unrivalled leadership skills.

    His death has unleashed a torrent of commentary on the significance of this revolution, and so it is important to set the record straight. His economic policies were mostly a failure. Partly this was because he had promised something arithmetically impossible: to increase military spending, cut taxes, and balance the budget. He kept the first two promises, delivering the largest peacetime military build-up in American history, and cutting taxes massively, mostly for upper-income households.

    But budget deficits soared to record heights. The national debt doubled, as a percentage of the economy, before Mr. Reagan's successors were able to bring it under control. This "military Keynesianism" did pull the economy out of the 1982 recession, but the 1980s still chalked up the slowest growth of any decade in the post-World War II era. And income was redistributed to the wealthy as never before: during the 1980s, most of the country's income gains went to the top 1 or 2 percent of households.

    Mr. Reagan also helped redistribute American income and wealth with a bold assault on American labor. In 1981 he summarily fired 12,000 air traffic controllers who went on strike for better working conditions. This ushered in a new and dark era of labor relations, with employers now free to "permanently replace" striking workers. The median real wage failed to grow during the decade of the 1980s.

    The Reagan revolution caused even more economic damage internationally, for example by changing policy at the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. Thus began the era of "structural adjustment" -- a set of economic policies that has become so discredited worldwide that the IMF and World Bank no longer use the term. The 1980s became "the lost decade" for Latin America, the region most affected by Washington's foreign economic policy. Income per person actually shrank for the decade, a rare historical event, and the region has yet to come close to its pre-1980s growth rates.

    Mr. Reagan is often credited with having caused the collapse of the Soviet Union, but this is doubtful. He did use the Cold War as a pretext for other interventions, including funding and support for horrific violence against the civilian population of Central America. In 1999 the United Nations determined that the massacres of tens of thousands of Guatemalans, mostly indigenous people, constituted "genocide." These massacres -- often involving grotesque torture -- reached their peak under the rule of Mr. Reagan's ally, the Guatemalan General Rios Montt. Tens of thousands of Salvadorans were also murdered during Mr. Reagan's presidency by death squads affiliated with the U.S.-funded Salvadoran military.

    But it was Mr. Reagan's efforts to overthrow the government -- democratically elected in 1984 -- of poor, underdeveloped Nicaragua that almost brought down his presidency. Congress cut off aid to Mr. Reagan's proxy army, the Contras, as a result of pressure from Americans -- led by religious groups -- who were disgusted by the Contras' tactics of murdering unarmed teachers and health care workers.

    The Reagan administration continued to run the war from the basement of the White House, and paid for part of it with the proceeds of illegal arms sales to Iran. Hence the Iran-Contra scandal, in which Mr. Reagan escaped prosecution because his subordinates claimed that he had no knowledge of their crimes.

    The Reagan revolution continues today: the "war on terror" has replaced the Cold War as pretext for intervention abroad, including the disastrous war in Iraq. Tax cuts for the rich and huge increases in military spending have revived the era of giant budget deficits. As the Great Communicator used to say, "There they go again."

    http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0610-01.htm

    Urban Suffering Grew Under Reagan
    by Peter Dreier

    As some Americans mourn the death of Ronald Reagan as if they'd lost a friend, let us recall that the two-term president was no friend to America's cities.

    Politically, Reagan owed little to urban voters, big-city mayors, black or Hispanic leaders, or labor unions - the major advocates for metropolitan concerns. His indifference to their problems was legendary. Early in his presidency, at a White House reception, he went up to the only black member of his cabinet, Housing and Urban Development Secretary Samuel Pierce, and said, "How are you, Mr. Mayor? I'm glad to meet you. How are things in your city?"

    Reagan not only failed to recognize his own HUD secretary; he also failed to deal with the growing corruption scandal at the agency. Indeed, during the Reagan years, HUD became a feeding trough for Republican campaign contributors. Fortunately for Reagan, the media didn't uncover the "HUD Scandal" until he left office. It resulted in the indictment and conviction of top Reagan administration officials for illegally targeting housing subsidies to politically connected developers.

    Reagan also presided over the dramatic deregulation of the nation's savings-and-loan industry, which allowed S&L's to end their reliance on home mortgages and engage in an orgy of commercial real estate speculation. This ultimately led to a federal taxpayer bailout that cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

    Reagan's fans give him credit for restoring the nation's prosperity. But the income gap between the rich and everyone else in America widened. Wages for the average worker declined. The homeownership rate fell. Despite boom times for the rich, the poverty rate in cities grew.

    Reagan is often lauded as "the great communicator," but he used his rhetorical skills to stigmatize poor people, which laid the groundwork for slashing the social safety net - despite the fact that Reagan's own family had been rescued by New Deal anti-poverty programs during the Depression.

    During his stump speeches, Reagan often told the story of a so-called welfare queen in Chicago who drove a Cadillac and had ripped off $150,000 from the government using 80 aliases, 30 addresses, a dozen Social Security cards and four fictional dead husbands. Reagan dutifully promised to roll back welfare. Journalists searched for this welfare cheat and discovered that she didn't exist. Nevertheless, he kept using the anecdote.

    Overall Reagan cut federal assistance to local governments by 60 percent. In 1980, federal dollars accounted for 22 percent of big-city budgets, but when he left office, it was down to 6 percent.

    Reagan's most dramatic cut was for low-income housing subsidies. Soon after taking office, he appointed a housing task force dominated by developers, landlords and bankers. Its 1982 report called for "free and deregulated" markets as an alternative to government assistance. Reagan followed their advice. Between 1980 and 1989, HUD's budget authority was cut from $74 billion to $19 billion in constant dollars. The number of new subsidized housing starts fell from 175,000 to 20,000 a year.

    One of Reagan's most enduring legacies is the steep increase in homeless people. By the late 1980s, the number of homeless had swollen to 600,000 on any given night and 1.2 million over the course of a year.

    Defending himself against charges of callousness toward the poor, Reagan gave a classic blaming-the-victim statement. In 1984 on "Good Morning America" he said that people sleeping on the streets "are homeless, you might say, by choice."

    President George W. Bush, who often claims Reagan's mantle, last month proposed cutting one-third of the Section 8 housing vouchers - a lifeline against homelessness for 2 million poor families. In this and many other ways, the Reagan revolution toward the cities continues.

    We've already named a major airport and schools and streets after Ronald Reagan. But perhaps a more fitting tribute to his legacy would be for each American city to name a park bench - where at least one homeless person sleeps every night - in honor of our 40th president.


    http://www.americanpolitics.com/20020319Hersh.html

    March 19, 2002 (Political Sanity/APJP) -- Let's begin our examination of the real Reagan Legacy by taking a look at myth number one: Democrats dominated Congress all through Reagan's terms, and called all his budgets Dead On Arrival.

    That's numerically and historically false. Reagan's people shoved his program through the Congress during the early Reagan years. James A. Baker, David Stockman and other Reaganites ran roughshod over Tip O'Neill and the divided Democrats in the House and Senate, and won every critical vote. This is because of the GOP majority in the Senate and the GOP-"Boll Weevil" (or "Dixiecrat") coalition in the House. Phil Gramm was a House Democrat at the time, and he even sponsored the most important Reagan budgets.

    Only after the huge Reagan recession -- made worse by utterly failed Reagan "Voodoo Economics" - did Democrats regain some control in Congress. They halted some Reagan initiatives, but couldn't do much on their own. That was a time of gridlock.

    Six years into Reagan's presidency, Democrats retook the Senate, and began to reverse some of Reagan's horrendous policies. By that time, Reaganomics had "accomplished" quite a bit: doubled the national debt, caused the S&L crisis, and nearly wrecked the financial system.

    Which brings us to myth number two: Jimmy Carter wrecked the economy, and Reagan's bold tax cuts saved it.

    This is utterly absurd. Economic growth indices -- GDP, jobs, revenues -- were all positive when Carter left office. All plunged after Reagan policies took effect.

    Reagan didn't cure inflation, the main economic problem during the Carter years. Carter's Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker tried when he raised interest rates. That's the opposite of what Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan has done to keep inflation low.

    Carter's policies and people fought inflation, but maintained real growth. On the other hand, Reagan's policies helped cause the worst recession since the Great Depression: two bleak years with nearly double-digit unemployment! Reaganomics failed in less than a year, and it took an entire second year for the economy to recover from the failure.

    Carter didn't cause the inflation problem, but his tough policies and smart personnel solved it. Unfortunately for Carter, it took too long for the good results to kick in. Not only didn't Reagan help whip inflation, he actually opposed the Volcker policies!

    Another major myth: Reagan cut taxes on all Americans, and that led to a great expansion.

    Here's the truth: the total federal tax burden increased during the Reagan years, and most Americans paid more in taxes after Reagan than before. The "Reagan Recovery" was unremarkable. It looks great only contrasted against the dismal Reagan Recession -- but it had nothing to do with Supply Side voodoo.

    With a red ink explosion -- $300 BILLION deficits looming as far as the eye could see -- GOP Senators, notably including Bob Dole, led the way on tax hikes. The economy enjoyed its recovery only after total tax increases larger than the total tax cuts were implemented. Most importantly, average annual GDP growth during the Reagan 80s was lower than during the Clinton 90s or the JFK-LBJ 60s!

    Enough about the economy. Here's the biggest myth of them all: Ronald Reagan won the "Cold War".

    In reality, Reagan did nothing to bring down the Soviet Union.

    By 1980, the Soviet Union was trying to cut its own defense spending. Reagan made it harder for them to do so. In fact, Reagan increased the possibility of a nuclear war because he was -- frankly, and sadly -- senile. He thought we could actually recall submarine-launched nuclear missiles (talk about a Reagan myth), and bullied the Soviets to highest alert several times.

    Critically, Reagan never even tried to bring down the Soviet Union.

    Wasteful overspending on defense didn't end the Soviet Union. In fact, it played into the hands of authoritarian "Communist" hard-liners in the Kremlin. Reagan thought the Soviet Union was more powerful than we were. He was trying to close what he called "the window of vulnerability."

    This was sheer idiocy.

    No general in our military would trade our armed forces for theirs. If it were to happen, none of the Soviet military command would turn down that deal. We had better systems, better troops, and better morale.

    Here's the truth: we'd already won the Cold War before Reagan took office. All Reagan needed to do was continue the tried-and-true containment policies Harry S. Truman began and all subsequent presidents employed. The Soviet Union was Collapsing from within. The CIA actually told this to Reagan as he took office.

    Here's an example: the Soviet Union military couldn't deal with a weak state on its own border, the poor, undermanned Afghanistan. Most of the Soviets' military might had to make sure its "allies" in the Warsaw Pact and subjects along the South Asian front didn't revolt. Even Richard Nixon told Reagan he could balance the budget with big defense cuts.

    Reagan ignored this, and wrecked our budget.

    We didn't have to increase weapons spending, but Reagan didn't care. He ran away from summits with the dying old-guard Soviets, and the new-style "glasnost" leadership of Mikhail Gorbachev baffled the witless Reagan and his closed-minded extremist advisors.

    Maggie Thatcher finally cajoled the Gipper into meeting Gorby, and Gorby cleaned Reagan's clock. Reagan's hard-right "handlers" nearly had to drag Reagan out of the room before he signed away our entire nuclear deterrent. Reagan -- and the planet -- was lucky Gorbachev sought genuine and stable peace. Had Yuri Andropov's health held, Reagan's "jokes" and gaffes might have caused World War III.

    Eventually Reagan even gave Gorbachev his seal of approval. Visiting Moscow before the August Coup, Reagan said the Soviet Union was no longer the "Evil Empire." He predicted his friend Gorbachev would lead the Soviet Union for many years to come.

    As usual, Reagan was wrong. A few months later, disgruntled military officers kidnapped Gorbachev, throwing him out of power forever. Reagan remained disengaged: nothing he did caused the coup, and nothing he did made the Soviet military support Boris Yeltsin over their superiors.

    We're all fortunate things happened as they did -- but once again, Reagan did nothing to make this fluke more likely.

    All this is vintage Reagan. Reagan took credit for others' hard word and hard choices, and blamed them for his failures. Reagan even blamed Jimmy Carter for Reagan's foolish, fatal, and reckless decision to leave 243 Marines stationed in Beirut, helpless and unguarded.

    Reagan hired over 100 crooks to run our government, and broke several laws himself. His policies were almost uniformly self-defeating, wrong-headed, immoral and unfair.

    Reagan was an actor playing the part of the president. He was style over substance; lucky, not good.

    And once the myths are stripped from the "legacy", the truth becomes obvious: Reagan was by far the most overrated man in American history.
  2. Sonya in Tx

    Sonya in Tx Well-Known Member

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    Reagan's failure was staying in office well after Alzheimers already set in.....
  3. Mrs.JockEwing

    Mrs.JockEwing Don't Touch My Junk

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    http://surftofind.com/reagan

    Ronald Reagan was a beloved man but he was not the President of the United States. He was a ceremonial monarch.

    Now that he is gone, we forget the fact that Reagan preached the virtues of a balanced budget and delivered the biggest deficit in history. He preached the virtues of family values but was the nation's first divorced President with four estranged children. Fraud and dishonesty in the Reagan government produced the longest-running, independent-counsel investigation ever, and that is before the Iran-contra investigation exposed the true nature of the criminal empire that Reagan's hands-off policy had produced.

    Reagan was very good at delivering prepared text, but he proved to be very uninformed when the press asked him unexpected questions and he spent his presidency evading the media. The pictures of using helicopter noise to dodge the media are as common as the unanswered questions that surround the Reagan presidency. In retrospect, it is safe to say that even Reagan could not accomodate unanswered questions because the "acting President" was not informed. Reagan delegated authority and the casual oversight of those he placed in charge, granted loose canons the opportunity to define the Reagan presidency. Indeed, Ronald Reagan did not exist in the world of unprepared text, and it is not possible to understand the Reagan presidency without examining the conduct of those he placed in charge.

    In actual fact, Ronald Reagan was the revenge of Nixon apologists who thought that Nixon deserved to be popular, and he paved the way for equally incompetent people like George Bush.

    Like Reagan before him, who turned authority over to people like Bill Casey and Richard Nixon, George Bush turned to Cheney, Tenet, Rumsfeld, Rice and Iran-contra criminals like Poindexter, and he re-invented the very same scandals that trash the American constitution in the name of freedom and democracy. Reagan got away with it because he was charming and uninformed and time will determine George Bush's capacity to dodge the media as effectively as Ronald Reagan did. Skeptics will invariably suggest that Richard Nixon had absolutely nothing to do with Ronald Reagan's Administration, but history has recorded the fact that during Reagan's presidency "Nixon gets into his office every morning about 7:30. By noon, he will have made and taken 40 calls, most of them to Washington. First, he calls the White House and speaks to Ed Meese, Bud McFarlane and President Reagan. Then he starts working the State Department. Everyone from George Schultz on down. He not only gives advice on foreign policy, but on politics in general. What he says is taken very seriously."

    In 1960, Ronald Reagan campaigned for Richard Nixon, and in 1980, Ronald Reagan won for Richard Nixon. Those who believed that Kennedy's charisma had robbed the opportunity to advance the Nixonian agenda, turned Ronald Reagan into the heart and the soul of the Republican party. The fix worked; Ronald Reagan communicated the lofty ideals of the Republican party while criminals like Richard Nixon, Oliver North and John Poindexter routinely trashed the Constitution.

    In 1992, Independent counsel, Lawrence Walsh, was still probing the Iran-contra scandal, but Reagan was unable or unwilling to cooperate. When he took testimony from Reagan in July 1992, Walsh asked Reagan if his longtime friend and media adviser was a part of his administration and Ronald Reagan said, "I honestly can't swear to that. I'd hate to have him hear me say it." Reagan lost his memory 2 years before he had good reason to blame it on a medical condition. In Novmeber of 1994, Reagan eloquantly disclosed the claim that he suffered from Alzeimer's disease, but whose script was he reading?

    Reagan was certainly not in a position to speak his own mind. The man without guile was infuriated over the fact that criminals like Oliver North and John Poindexter had jeopardized his legacy, and his subsequent silence was absolutely necessary, to conceal the fury of violating his own, personal principles.

    It is difficult to believe that Ronald Reagan's convenient memory lapse was voluntary because his core decency was consistent, both before and after his apparent illness. On March 4, 1987, Ronald Reagan said, "A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that is true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not." If anybody was granted the right to investigate the facts and the evidence, it would expose the criminal operations of the people Reagan empowered [North, Casey, Nixon, Poindexter, etc.] and the obsession to cover up the truth prevailed. Needless to say, the American people fell in love with Reagan's heart and good intentions, it is the crafty people who surrounded him, who ultimately deserve all the blame.

    If we had watched the great communicator communicate throughout an illness that did not intend to conceal anything, we would have been in a better position to understand the progression of Alzheimer's disease, but given the unprecdented hypocricy of the Reagan years, we are merely left with the fact that Reagan's heart and soul was pure, but the criminals he appointed, were absolutely evil.

    In a letter to the editor of USA Today, Dorman T. Shindler casually recorded the giant flaws of the Reagan years, when he wrote:

    One hopes that after the smoke has cleared, someone at USA TODAY will see fit to write a lengthy piece about Ronald Reagan's "other" legacy: dangerous deregulation; a right-wing attorney general, Ed Meese, who bulldozed civil rights, a Secretary of the Interior, James Watt, who failed to protect the environment, once explaining, "I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns'; the Iran-contra scandal; and a tripled national debt.
    That these horrific dealings were glossed over or swept under the rug during Reagan's time is unconscionable. That they are still being vastly ignored by the media is sad.

    The real measure of Reagan's legacy is his ability to hoodwink supposedly savvy journalists into believeing the fairy tale.
  4. Garrison

    Garrison Moderator

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    So no reliable, unbiased source?
  5. mztx71

    mztx71 Well-Known Member

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    Reagan was a great Pres, sorely missed across the globe! Arrrrrrrrrrrrr you were great Ronnie! ;)
  6. Bobby Blake Gioberti

    Bobby Blake Gioberti Active Member

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    I doubt the people of Nicaragua would agree with you.
  7. ihtgb

    ihtgb New Member

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    That's one country out of how many?

    ooh, you make a good argument BBG
  8. Barbara Fan

    Barbara Fan Moderator Staff Member

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    I thought that Ronald Reagan was a great communicator and friend to Britain - and did much to break down the barriers with eastern Europe! Far prefer him to the current President of USA.
  9. eaejr

    eaejr Well-Known Member

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    He really did seem out of touch (Iran-contra,crack cocaine epidemic,etc.) in his second term.
  10. eaejr

    eaejr Well-Known Member

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    President Reagan was no friend to the poor and African-Americans.

    In a lot of ways, Reagan and George W. Bush are cut from the same cloth.
  11. SnarkyOracle!

    SnarkyOracle! Well-Known Member

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    Reagan put us on the path we're "enjoying" now.

    He was an affable, but cold, Rich Man's President. The shaping of "Reagan Legacy" has been in the works since before he left office, but a Lie then is still a Lie now.
  12. Mrs.JockEwing

    Mrs.JockEwing Don't Touch My Junk

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    His Alzheimers was setting in when he became a Republican.
  13. Mrs.JockEwing

    Mrs.JockEwing Don't Touch My Junk

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    As Libya what they think of Reagan.
  14. Garrison

    Garrison Moderator

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    Yes, because Libya and Nicaragua are fit to judge other countries leaders.
  15. CarlD

    CarlD Well-Known Member

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    Comments like this says it all about Mrs. Jocks political ways of thinking !!! :sosad:

    Say what you will, but history will look at him and his Presidency more favorably than ANY President between 1980 and today.
  16. Jack

    Jack Well-Known Member

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    you forgot gays ... he hated gays

    in fact he "didn't do anything to stop AIDS"

    because the President can stop AIDS if he wants to
  17. SnarkyOracle!

    SnarkyOracle! Well-Known Member

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    Well, using the word "AIDS" might've been a nice step in the right direction.
  18. Jack

    Jack Well-Known Member

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    Whose fault was it that AIDS was spreading?

    people sharing needles and having promiscuous sex, etc. etc.? ... or Ronald Reagan?
  19. mztx71

    mztx71 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed! On both accounts!
  20. SnarkyOracle!

    SnarkyOracle! Well-Known Member

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    Oh, so now you're changing your argument... Now the issue is the people whose "fault" it was they contracted AIDS in the first place.

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