Discussion in 'Dallas - The Original Series' started by TJames03, Oct 1, 2018.
Thanks to whomever made this!!!!!!
Dallas died here........
That scene of Pam telling Cliff she may be able to have a baby still breaks my heart. Pam deserved to see those plans fulfilled.
Dead after indeed I could never warm to a Victoria Principal free Dallas. Way too important to lose.
They would have been better off killing Pam off right there. Nobody would survived those flames that we saw. However, not only did Victoria catch them by surprise when informing them late in the season that she was definitely leaving, it's clear that the Dallas brass were afraid to do a storyline like they had done 2 years prior with Bobby, and the audience would have been cynical because of that, asking if Pam's death was another dream. David Jacobs said that the worst thing about the dream revelation was how it insulted the viewers who had mourned Bobby's death. This, and having those same viewers on a string for 31 episodes afterwards with storylines that would get annulled.
My mother was a big Dallas fan. She loved Pam and Mark together, Jamie and Cliff together, Donna and Ray's storylines that season with patching up their marriage, the down's syndrome, miscarriage, adoption of Tony, Sue Ellen hitting rock bottom and sorting herself out with high self-esteem for the first time, was riveted to Angelica Nero's plans and her attempt to kill J.R. and Jack, Jamie apparently getting killed, and Sue Ellen getting blown up in J.R.'s office at the end. Of course, none of it happened as far as the next season was concerned. Not only was Bobby alive, but Mark had never returned, Donna was still pregnant, her marriage with Ray was having problems which only got worse, Sue Ellen was never blown up and her self-esteem was back down (at least at first), Jack reduced to virtual irrelevance until he left the series, Cliff never genuinely loved Jamie and Jamie was killed off again for definite this time, the women were weakened etc.
Hard to imagine Dallas without Pam, full stop. However, killing her off and having people mourn her would have been better than mummifying her and turning Pam's story into a dog's breakfast like they did.
I think that the decline of Dallas started during 84-85 season and it never achieved the quality of prime seasons 78-84 as i don’t see the 86-87 season as that big of a comeback season as some people do.
But looking back now i think Victoria Principal’s last season 86-87 was the last one when the show was still real Dallas. When she/Pam left it was basically all over and Dallas was done.
Also they handled Pam’s exit really, really badly as i found this totally stupid:
” While recovering from her burns, she decides to get away from the Ewings and everyone else, including her son, disappear and divorce Bobby for a second time.
Pam made a brief appearance in the season 12 premiere, with a different appearance as a result of plastic surgery (which also doubled as an explanation for Margaret Michaels playing the role, rather than Victoria Principal). She tells her brother Cliff that she is happy in her new life and plans to marry her doctor. Later, after Cliff leaves, her doctor asks why she didn't tell Cliff that she has a terminal disease and only has a year to live.”
So they just could’t come up with anything less retarded?
It was almost like that they intentionally wanted to get rid of the credibility what Dallas still had left at that point. They succeeded, which was probably last time they succeeded at something.
”Oh Barnes, you just get dumber and dumber every day”
I turned that JR’s classic line to: Oh producers, you just get dumber and dumber every season.
The most logical thing would’ve been to have Pam and Bobby divorce and Pam just leaves town. Victoria Principal was owed so much more of a better exit than going up in a fireball. They wanted to get a good cliffhanger out of it at the expense of the character Pam when they could’ve done something else. Victoria says she didn’t mind the cliffhanger knowing she would be killed off. But after what they did to Bobby two years prior and undermined the show by erasing his death I don’t know she could’ve honestly believed they intended to kill Pam once and for all.
Agreed. What makes some people like Season 10 DVD is the nostalgia. For example, Pam is living at Southfork for the first time since Season 6 DVD, and it has all the Dallas legends together (minus Jim Davis and Charlene Tilton) one last time. But personally, despite liking this nostalgia to an extent, I thought the season was much worse compared to how events developed after Bobby's death in Season 9 DVD. Wallowing in nostalgia searching for past glories is not the way to build for the future, even though it was the last good Dallas season because of the old team all being there one last time.
They were scared to kill Pam off, because of what they did with Bobby. The fans would be cynical, too.
I'm doing a Dallas marathon at the moment. The last episode I watched last night was the one with Angelica's bombs blowing up Jamie and Sue Ellen instead of Jack and J.R., and then Pam waking up and Bobby being in the shower. Now for the last 5 seasons. It's going to jar, as it always does, at a season's worth of storylines never happening, and those cliffhangers having no resolutions.
When I was watching Swansong, I made a particular point to remember precisely what the storylines were at that moment before the dream started, for future reference.
I read an article earlier today from the Chicago Tribune, dated from 1989, and apparently Larry Hagman was getting bored with the same routines year after year with J.R. Ewing on Dallas, which kind of suggests that this is why J.R. was dumbed down a bit. And it was the Lorimar boss who convinced him to become an Executive Producer on Dallas in 1988 alongside Leonard Katzman, with Larry Hagman asking "why should I do it?" and the boss replying "because you'll make lots of money". I was thinking, what a mess. Even Hagman obviously wasn't convinced that he was an Executive Producer.
Then again, if Hagman was getting bored with the same routines, why destroy the change in dynamics brought about by Bobby's death and the season without Bobby? He obviously missed Patrick Duffy more than any boredom with routines, and didn't want Dack Rambo stepping into Duffy's shoes.
Watching the above video and the shared scene between Pam and Christopher when he questions his adoption shows how atrocious the writers treated the character of Pam in Lorimar Dallas and then Christopher in TNT Dallas. Though I wasn't completely satisfied how all those years later we learn the truth of Pam's passing at least we were given some closure and comfort she was determined to return to Dallas and Christopher before cancer claimed her.
As for the treatment of Christopher in TNT Dallas? My 40 year investment in a TV series which still fascinates and torments me has left me with the memory of Christopher getting blown up in a car.
Regarding Pam's "atrocious" scene with Christopher where he asks about his adoption, are you referring to the following scene scene? It's the scene in which Pam tries to make Christopher feel better about it by saying that biological parents have to accept the baby who is born to them but not adoptive parents. Adoptive parents get their pick of all the babies who have been born and out of all those babies, she and Bobby chose Christopher.
I ask you this because I wouldn't call that scene an atrocious treatment of the Pam character. It's true that Pam exaggerates an awful lot by saying adoptive parents have their pick of all the babies who have been born. First of all, most babies aren't put up for adoption at all. Second, of the babies who are put up for adoption, Bobby nd Pam hardly had their pick of all those babies. As a nmatter of fact, they weren't given a pick of any of those babies because they were still on the waiting list. Then Bobby bought Christopher. Yes, he actually bought rather than adopted Christopher. Later they did adopt him but that was several months after they bought him. So it was never a situation where Pam and Bobby were presented with even 10 or 12 babies and given their choice of which baby they wanted to adopt. So Pam exaggerated a hell of a lot to Christopher in response to his question. Technically she lied, but it was a white lie. It wasn't a lie that would hurt Christopher; it just was designed to make him feel better which is an admirable intention. I wouldn't call that an atrocious treatment of the character of Pam and I'm wondering why you called it that, or were you referring to some other scene which was atrocious?
By the way, Rove, while I'm asking you questions, there's something else that fits in well with the subject of this thread that I'd like your opinion on. Suppose, just hypothetically, that they had gone ahead and killed the Pam character by saying she died in the collision and resulting massive explosion at the end of season 10. Then suppose that during the break between season 11 and season 12, they'd gotten a phone call from Victoria Principal in which she said to them that her movie career wasn't turning out as she'd hoped, and she wanted to return to Dallas.
If that happened and they decided to bring her back by calling season 11 a dream, and that the dream actually began with Pam was driving home from the doctor's office, almost getting in an accident, and then actually getting into that awful collision with the oil truck. So the end of season 10 and all of season 11 would be someone's dream. They'd be repeating what they did when they found out Patrick Duffy wanted to return. The downside is of course the reaction by the audience to yet another dream season! The upside is they get back Victoria Principal. In your opinion would it have been worth it to bring Victoria back if that's how they were going to do it?
Victoria Principle told the producers in 1985 that she intended to leave when her contract was up in 1987, that gave them two whole years to plan out a suitable exit for such an important character.
However in Spring 1985, it was believed that Patrick Duffy was never going to return to the series, had season 10 stuck with Bobby's death I guess Pam would have simply left Dallas with Christopher.
That last bit is an interesting question one.never asked before on here, whose dream would it have been? Nevertheless I doubt if VP wanted to return to Dallas in the Autumn of 1988 they would not use the dream scenario again.
Thanks! That's quite an honor - having come up with a question nobody has ever asked on here, given how long it has been since Dallas ended and the thousands of questions that have been asked here!
I came up with the question by taking what would seem like the least desirable thing to do (having yet another dream season), but having the reward for doing so be the thing that CBS, Lorimar and the team of people who made Dallas would most want (having Victoria Principal return). If there is anything that would make them decide it's worth it to have a second dream season, it would be getting Victoria Principal back on Dallas. Especially since in season 11 they were really hurting in the ratings - at least compared to what the show used to do ratings-wise.
I haven't decided whose dream it would be but since it would begin with Pam and something absolutely terrible happening to her, the most natural seeming choices would be that it would be Bobby's nightmare or Christopher's nightmare, or possibly Cliff's nightmare. I would rule out Pam since she had the other dream and it would be especially repetitive to have her have this dream as well as the first dream season's dream. This dream has too much technical stuff Christopher wouldn't know about to be able to dream it so that leaves Bobby and Cliff as the people who might have had this nightmare. Since it contained something that could be considered the realization of Pam and Bobby's greatest wish - that doctors could find a way for Pam to be able to carry a baby to term, I think it would be Bobby's dream.
You make a second dream scenario almost appealing @Kenny Coyote! This is really good.
The thing is with DALLAS is that its first six years: 1978 to 1984, it could do no wrong, the series was at its strongest, the entire original cast (except of course Jim Davis)
As some one said earlier the 1984-85 season was when the rot was starting to set in with repetitive storylines (seriously the Who shot Bobby story was basically a do over of who shot JR) the Donna Reed issue and a sense of lackluster and tiredness in general.
The 1985-86 was the best opportunity to reboot the series, after a decade on the air big changes were needed and Bobby's death was necessary, but then along comes the dream scenario and it messes everything up.
The 1986-87 season wasn't so much the renewed season, but more like a sunset on a once great series, it was based purely on nostalgia for the past on a slow decline downward.
Pams departure was far more detrimental to the series than Bobby's was, and it didn't help that Pam's role in the series was gradually wound down to that of someone weaker than she should have been, I do wonder how Pak would have been handled had she stayed on the series beyond 1987.
In what aspects do you think Pam was weaker than she should have been in her last season?
Yes! The next season should have opened with Pams funeral and some great family scenes and Cliff should have been included there as well of course.
But not that nonsense with the hospital-mummy they came up with.
With the dream revelation, not only did they have viewers on a string for 31 episodes and then annul those storylines, but they jettisoned the serious chances to give Dallas new life to grow on into the future, and instead returned to a nostalgic past, all because the the ratings dropped a bit.
Starting with Barbara Bel Geddes' heart surgery in March 1983, there was at least one mishap every year afterwards. Prior to this, the only political controversy behind the scenes was Larry Hagman successfully renegotiating his contract after "Who Shot J.R.?".
Barbara Bel Geddes' heart surgery meant no Miss Ellie for the first 11 episodes of Season 7 DVD.
Barbara Bel Geddes then left Dallas entirely at the end of Season 7 DVD, after her agent failed to renegotiate contractual terms.
Donna Reed then plays Miss Ellie in Season 8 DVD
Barbara Bel Geddes back as Miss Ellie in Season 9 DVD, and ligitation between Donna Reed and Lorimar
No Patrick Duffy in Season 9 DVD
The dream revelation at the start of Season 10 DVD, ending the increasingly ugly war between Philip Capice and Leonard Katzman
Victoria Principal and Susan Howard gone after Season 10 DVD
Priscilla Presley and Steve Kanaly gone after Season 11 DVD, although Kanaly returned for 5 episodes in Season 12 DVD
Linda Gray gone after Season 12 DVD
The list of stuff in the last 2 seasons requires a shopping list length.
Pam was much more vital to Dallas' dynamic than Bobby was. She and J.R. were the most important in that regard.
Pam was far more passive and out of character in her last season. The bits that stand out most are Pam asking Jenna if Pam and Bobby can bring up Jenna's unborn baby, Pam being way too soft on Cliff despite his worst behaviour ever in Dallas (she was previously harsher on Cliff for more reasonable behaviour by comparison), and the bit when Pam said "Perhaps I'm being all female and sentimental". That's the macho scriptwriters or showrunners there, not Pam.
There was also the Naldo situation, going over old ground, about Charlie's parentage and getting Charlie to know her father. It contradicted the Season 2 and 3 DVD episodes with Jenna. Actually, the redoing of Charlie's parentage was in Season 7 DVD, so the staleness was starting there in its early stages.
They had her constantly whining over Jenna's baby, I felt that was out of character, the Pam of 1978-84 would have been angry, granted, but she would have developed a pragmatic way to the situation, maybe even reach out to Jenna in a way that didn't involve buying her unborn child, I felt sorry for VP during that year.
Pam during the dream year was strong and fought hard, this what we were building up to for all those years, I felt Katzman was punishing VP in her final season since she was a vocal Capice supporter
I know Pam had her moments of being weak but she would later comeback stronger in her earlier years.
What I loved about Pam is that she more or less became Lucy's foster mother within just a few episodes, she wasn't about to let Lucy run wild like how the other Ewings did, she took that upon herself and took Lucy to school, dealt with Lucy's stalker, I think that of all the friendships on DALLAS Pam and Lucy is the one I wished the writers kept up.
I have a different view of it. She did complain about Jenna having Bobby's baby but people have to realize that not being able to have a baby was Pam's biggest insecurity. She'd known for a long time that she couldn't have a baby but for the first time she was being faced with another woman having her husband's baby. Her solution was to try to adopt Jenna's baby. I'll take that any day over her earlier reaction when faced with the news she couldn't have a baby. You remember what she did then? She tried to jump off the roof of a building and ended up in a sanitarium. Bobby literally grabbed her and pulled her back from the edge. The doctor treating her at the sanitarium was worried that Pam was so far gone that she didn't know if she know how to restore her mental health - something Pam's doctor told Bobby only after he had bought Christopher which seemed to do for Pam what the doctor couldn't.
Her situation in season 10 was tougher because she still couldn't have a baby and yet Jenna was having Bobby's baby. Her reaction of trying to adopt it compared to attempted suicide showed a great increase in Pam's strength and that she had gone through some serious personal growth in those 6 years in between (7 years if you count the dream). Personal growth is a tough process and a lot of people aren't willing to go through that process because in order to achieve it you're going to make some mistakes along the way and that's a painful experience. That's why a lot of people never change or progress. They're afraid of having to make those painful mistakes.
I still think it was poor writing. Pam was a smart woman. What did she think Jenna’s reaction was going to be when she said she wanted to adopt her baby?! Pam eventually accepted the Jenna situation by the end of the season. She knew Bobby loved her and picked her to marry. But her role on the show was declining and the character deteriorating. If they would’ve caved in to Victoria’s demand for one more season at her asking price I can only imagine what would’ve happened to Pam. Probably like Sue Ellen in the first episodes. More coffee darling?
Kenny, sorry for any confusion. I meant how the writers ineviatably treated the character of Pam by having her survive the explosion. Then had no clue how to go forward since Victoria wasn't coming back so had her vanish from the hospital only for Margaret Michaels to be employed so Leonard Katzman could feel warm and fuzzy on how beautifully he gave closure to the character and at the same time appease the fans.
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