Gary & Valene Appreciation Thread

Discussion in 'Knots Landing' started by Karin Schill, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I am sure you are right about that. I think they were filming episode 2x6 when Larry died and the first episode that Gary showed up in was episode 2x7.
    So it was so close that we'd gotten to see Gary and Val interact with JR again. But it was not to be. So what did you think of Gary and Val's appearance on Dallas TNT?

    Also as for the changes in the episodes. I am sure that John Ross welcoming exchange with Gary was originally supposed to have been JR and Gary. I mean just look at the dialogue:

    "Uncle Gary who the hell let you off the cul-de-sac?"
    "You sure know how to make me feel welcome John Ross, just like your daddy!"
    "Just surprised to see you back in Dallas, it's all. From what I remember you couldn't stand it here unless you were hiding behind Miss Ellie's skirt or a bottle."

    The last line makes sense if it had come out of JR's mouth and he'd said "Mama's skirt" but not John Ross since John Ross wasn't even born when JR ran Gary off the ranch and was not even at Southfork when Gary came back for the reading of Jock's will. So since Bobby never died and that visit from Gary never happened I don't think John Ross has seen him since he was like a very young child. So it seems weird that he has any memories of Gary at all. If you see what I mean?

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  2. Seaviewer

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    I was happy to see them again but it's a shame their story seems to have been cut-off without a proper ending. From memory, I don't think we even got a reconciliation scene. They were just suddenly gone.
    You're probably right about that.

    Maybe he's talking about memories of what he overheard. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between real memories what one had been told.
     
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  3. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Good point. Sometimes it is hard to distinguish between what you actually remember from your childhood and what other people have told you about it.

    Unfortunately you remember it right. :(
    The scene with Val and Sue Ellen was the last we saw of Val.

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    "I don't want your husband"

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    "He may not come back to me. But I can promise you that I am not leaving Southfork until I've shown him what a manipulative monster you are!"

    These lines seem to build up to something more that we sadly never got to see!:(

    Then this was Gary's last scene with Sue Ellen:

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    "Valene left you because she knew it was the only way to get you sober again and she was right. She left you because she loves you. /---/ One day she may be gone and you're gonna regret the loss of every moment you could have spent with her."

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    "If you ever need anything I am just a phone call away!"

    So after this we were just to assume that he went after her and that they reconciled. I think it sucked how Dallas TNT created a rift between Valene & Gary that we never got any proper resolution to. A reconciliation scene would have been awesome and would have left them in a good place as Knots Landing did. But instead it was left a bit ambigious but I guess this scene implied that he took Sue Ellen's advice since he left Southfork. It also left the door open for him to return later on which he never did even though Sue Ellen's drinking problem kept escalating out of control in the next season. So another appearance to support Sue Ellen when she was at the hospital after the fire totally would have worked.

    In fact as much as I loved seeing Gary and Val again, two things really bugged me about their Dallas appearance:

    1) We didn't get to see enough of them. We just saw her arrive and then storm into Sue Ellen's office. We never got to see the scene where Val and Gary talked. :(
    It was filmed so why they didn't put it among the deleted scenes on the DVD makes no sense. :confuse:I mean I am sure the fans would much rather have wanted to see Val and Gary talk or JR/SE dance at the BBQ among the deleted scenes than how John Ross' secretary got a chopped off hand in a box :NI: or how John Ross was in bed with Tommy's sister which was what we got instead among the deleted season one and two scenes. :re:

    2) Dallas TNT borrowed the characers from Knots Landing (although they did originate from Dallas) and then they didn't give them proper closure, which meant that they ruined the happy ending that Valene and Gary had gotten on the original show and also in Back to the cul-de-sac in 1997. Of course this could easily be fixed if there was ever another Knots Landing reunion or reboot series... ;)

    Any thoughts on this?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
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  4. Seaviewer

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    I agree with everything you said but in fairness it was Dallas and not Knots Landing so maybe we were expecting too much.

    On the other hand, why use the characters at all if they weren't going to tell a complete story with them? And certainly, leaving filmed scenes off the DVDs was unforgivable.

    All we can do is infer that they did reconcile and that the whole incident was just a bump in their relationship.
     
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  5. Mustard

    Mustard Soap Chat Fan

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    I remember Joan Van Ark saying that TNT Dallas could use Gary and Val because the characters first appeared on Dallas, but couldn't use characters that originated on Knots Landing. If I remember correctly, she was responding to a question asking about whether Gary and Val's twin children Bobby and Betsy would show up on TNT Dallas.

    As for how Gary and Val were portrayed on TNT Dallas, my outlook is that it's a different dimension anyway to the Knots Landing universe where Bobby died in 1985.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  6. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I heard somewhere that CC originally wanted Donna Mills to guest star as Abby too but wasn't allowed to use her since she hadn't originated from Dallas.

    To push up the ratings by Knots Landing fans tuning in to catch up with Val & Gary. :(
    I was watching the new Dallas anyway since I am a Dallas fan first. Still I had expected more from this guest appearance than what we got. It does seem like their story was largely cut out and not to even include the missing scene among the deleted scenes on the DVD is a disgrace!

    Also let's change the topic to spark some more discussion. :)

    I was wondering what's everyone's opinion of this love triangle?

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    Although I love Gary & Val as a couple I think the Abby, Gary and Valene love triangle was a brilliant idea since it opened up for a lot more storyline possibilities. Also being apart allowed the characters of Gary and Valene to evolve in a way they probably wouldn't have if they had stayed married throughout the entire show.

    Also if Gary & Valene were not together which partner did you prefer them with the most?


    For me that is an easy choice since I really enjoyed Gary & Abby and also Ben & Valene as a couple. bal.jpg
    I remember the first time I watched the show I wasn't that fond of Ben but rewatching the show over the past two years I not only grew to like him. He became one of my favorite characters. I really liked that he worked as a journalist on TV and I think it was interesting to watch him clash with Abby at work. Albeit I wish they hadn't ruined Ben's character in season 8.

    Anyway what I liked about Ben & Val was that he was a good guy who loved Valene so much that he accepted raising another man's children as his own just to keep her.


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    Then as for Abby & Gary. I love the fact that they had this playfulness about them. Their relationship was also very much about sex, money and power. It was their joint business and succeeding with their ventures that brought them together. I think Abby helped Gary realize his potential as a business man. He was not the loser that his father and older brother had made him believe that he was. Yet Abby was clearly the most ambitious and savvy of the two. Gary may have inherited a lot of money but she was the one who knew how to make the money grow by investing it visely. Sometimes behind Gary's back. I think Gary did love her but he learnt not to trust her and with time he got to the point where he wondered why he had ever left Valene for Abby. Of course by that point it was too late as Val was already married to someone else.

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    Finally it seems to me like whoever they paired Gary and Val up with it was always implied that they didn't love that person as much as they loved each other. It was like no matter who they were seeing they never could get over each other and of course the audience knew it and was just waiting for them to get back together again. At least I know I was after their intial new relationships with Abby and Ben were over. I wish they had been reunited properly in season nine, as I wasn't too fond of the Danny-Amanda story but maybe that was just me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  7. Seaviewer

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    It's hard to see it lasting so long if they hadn't done that. It's certainly what turned it into a soap opera. Just watching them slowly mature in their relationship might have been interesting but I doubt that more kitchen-sink drama in the vein of season one would have rated very well.
    Abby and Ben were obviously created as their alternative matches. There were undeniably genuine sparks between them otherwise there would have been no conflict in the viewers' minds.

    I did like Cathy, though. She was a ranch girl at heart, even more so than Val. The mystery of Amanda's identity and then the massive coincidence that she was married to Danny overshadowed her somewhat as a character but I did like her for as much of her that we saw. Jill seemed nice at first ... until she went crazy.

    I don't think any of Val's other potential mates was to be taken seriously. Not Danny or Parker. Maybe Rusty could have been but he was only in two episodes.
     
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  8. Mustard

    Mustard Soap Chat Fan

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    I love Gary and Val together, but Gary needed Abby at that time, because Gary was insecure, often bored, scared of responsibility and hated that he was like this, while Val was so sure of herself and took it upon herself to get Gary settled down in the KLM job and stay on the straight and narrow while they built a life and family in California. Gary loved Val, looked up to her strength, but he hated how insecure he was and how he couldn't handle responsibility.

    Ted Shackelford and Joan Van Ark were the first people to actually say "Gary would have an affair with Abby", and even during Season 2 they were saying it. David Jacobs was not keen on that at all at first, as Gary and Val were the main couple of the four on Knots Landing, but it started to make more sense to Jacobs by Season 3. Gary and Abby's affair opened up so many different angles and possibilities that ran for years on the show. Gary couldn't resist Abby, even more than the sex was the fact that she was urging him on in business and pushing him to reach higher, challenging him to better himself. Gary also later had parental responsibility, as stepfather to Olivia and Brian, again building Gary's character. To Val, what Abby was doing threatened to ruin Gary as a socially functioning person, but Abby was right and it was what Gary needed. Also, in contrast to J.R., Abby wanted to push Gary upwards, not knock him down and break him. For that matter, this was what Val needed too and she also developed and got better as a person. When Gary and Val did eventually get back together all those years later, they were much more suited for each other than ever before.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  9. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree that Abby & Gary's affair was a catalyst for a lot of plot possibilities on Knots Landing and a part of what made the show run for so long. Being with Abby did develop Gary's character. Like I remember a scene where they are playing around in Dallas and JR shows up...

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    They are not happy to see him of course. Then towards the end of the scene JR tells them:

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    "You know Abby I think you've done this boy a world of good. He's got some guts. Oh I wish my daddy had lived to see this day. Gary with guts!"

    I think this quote perfectly sums up how Abby has changed Gary. :)
    Even JR can see it and he likes what he sees.

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    I just realized that this publicity still must be from that scene...

    That is a great point. :)
    I love the relationship that developed between Abby's kids and Gary. Like he told Olivia when his marriage to Abby was coming close to an end, she was the only daughter that he'd gotten to raise. Obviously that was a reference to Lucy which he had not been able to raise and also Betsy who Val was keeping from him at that point. But yes like Abby pointed out "my kids thinks of you as their father".

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    It is ironic but for years Gary was more of a father to Olivia and Brian than he ever was to Lucy. Later on of course he got to be a father to Bobby and Betsy but at that point he'd already had lots of experience being a parent.


    Ben definitely was brought on to the show to be a love match for Valene. Yet Abby was already on the show prior to that so the character was not just meant for Gary. That was something which was developed because the actors suggested it to David Jacobs as @Mustard pointed out above. I think it does make sense that Gary had an affair with Abby considering that it was in his nature to have affairs. I mean he'd already cheated on Val with Judy Trent and only God knows why?! :eek:

    Yet I agree that Abby and Gary and also Ben & Val were great matches and I am sure if there had been "shippers" and Internet back in the 1980s it's possible that there would have been people who were Team Abby or Team Ben or there might have been "shipper wars". I know those things are so silly but I've seen it happen on other fandoms. :re:
    My point being that yes if Gary and Valene were not together their best alternative matches were definitely Abby and Ben and I am sure there were some fans who preferred those matches to Valene & Gary.

    I liked Cathy too but not together with Gary. I much preferred her with Joshua. ;)

    Then as for Parker. Yikes he was definitely not a serious love interest. :eck:He was just an obstacle that was put in the way of Gary reaching Valene when she thought she was Verna. But I admit that Parker trying to marry Valene/Verna was great drama and I love how Gary was determined to reach Valene and bring her back home to California with him. I think it's moments like those that shows us how Gary and Valene were meant to be together even when they were apart. Also how bittersweet wasn't that scene after he'd managed to reach her when they are talking and she can't remember they are divorced and asks him if they have always loved each other?

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    Again the expressions on their faces says everything! :clap:
    So yes great acting and great drama.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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  10. Mustard

    Mustard Soap Chat Fan

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    Yes, he certainly does, as long as they stay away from Dallas ;)

    Yes, Gary's experience with Olivia and Brian helped him in regards to Bobby and Betsy later. The whole Lucy situation left even more scars on Gary in many ways than it did on Val, because Val did everything in her power to get Lucy back when she was a teenager, from snatching Lucy and going on the run and legal action, while Gary had run off some time before that. Gary had different issues with Lucy compared to Val with Lucy. Lucy felt this herself, you could tell. She would sometimes scowl at her dad for not being tougher, or mocking him for not being there for her upbringing when he was trying to lay some ground rules. So yes, Gary needed the experience of bringing up Olivia and Brian for a few years to help him with the whole parenting thing.

    Gary slept with Judy because Judy looked up to Gary and his strength regarding alcoholism, and Gary felt flattered by that. In his marriage to Val, it was Gary who was looking up to his wife and her strength. Abby knew this too, which is why she also knew it wouldn't work between Gary and Judy. Gary never considered being in a relationship with Judy, unlike what Judy thought when she confronted Val about her affair.

    So with Gary and Judy, Gary was flattered that a woman was looking up to him and his strength, but it wasn't going to go beyond this. With Gary and Abby, it went a lot deeper. Abby was pushing Gary to get better in business and to handle responsibilities in his life as a whole, challenging him to do something about the insecurities he felt. Abby meant more to Gary than Judy ever did, even though Gary most certainly didn't want to lose Val, who he loved and who gave him the security he needed in life. Abby made it clear that she wasn't like Val, and wasn't into giving Gary security, as she pushed him to get better and sort himself out.

    What about Cathy with Ben?

    The connection that Ted and Joan had was incredible, really.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
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  11. Seaviewer

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    Yes, I realised that I'd mischaracterised that after I'd logged off for the day. I know she wasn't specifically created as a match for Gary but as time went by the aspects of her personality that meshed with his became more emphasised. Their love of excitement and risk-taking for example. Things that he didn't share with Val.

    Now that did seem contrived. On the other hand, as with Ray and Jenna on Dallas, perhaps it is not unbelievable that they would turn to each other as opposite sides of the same coin - caught between Gary and Val.
     
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  12. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh yeah absolutely. I love that scene after Gary & Val has gotten remarried and JR hears from Sue Ellen that Miss Ellie's bought them a house in California. He is so happy that he tells Sue Ellen to send them some china as a wedding gift and then goes on adding on more and more china. :lmao:
    So yeah it seemed like JR thought Gary was okay as long as he stayed out of his way and didn't claim anything (Ewing Oil, Southfork, their parents love) that JR considered was his.

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    Also I loved it when JR first showed up in Knots Landing and told Val. "How's my favorite sister in law?"

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    Val of course was not happy to see him at all. Yet JR acutally meant what he said. Because at that point he only had two sisters in law and he did prefer Valene over "that Barnes woman"! ;)

    That's very true. Lucy always seemed closer to Valene than to Gary. Yet she was the one who brought her parents back together again. If she hadn't brought Gary to see Valene at the diner where she worked who knows if they'd ever reconnected again?

    Yet Lucy did her best to play her parents out against each other and it showed when she visited them in Knots Landing that she resented Gary for abandoning her but she didn't blame Valene as much since she knew that her mama had not chosen to leave her. It was JR's fault Valene wasn't allowed to raise Lucy.

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    So yes Lucy was always closer to Valene and having Lucy in Knots Landing made Gary feel a bit left out.

    Of course by the end of her visit Lucy was able to forgive Gary and I just love this scene with them when they are finally united as a family:

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    Valene wants to run in the ocean...
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    Gary is all for it...
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    Lucy being the teenager she was is more reluctant.
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    But of course they end up running in the ocean anyway. ;)

    So after this happy conclusion of the episode we think that surely Lucy must return real soon to visit her parents again and yet we never see her visit them again! :confused:
    It seems a bit weird how they just introduce a character and then never did anything more with her. It was actually the same thing with Sid's first daughter Annie who was never on Knots Landing again after the pilot, she didn't even return for her father's funeral! :(
    So does anyone know why the characters of Annie and Lucy never returned again?


    Excellent analysis of Gary and Judy. I never understood that relationship before but you explained perfectly what it was all about. It makes sense now. :)

    Oh absolutely. I loved that scene with Gary and Abby when she told him that she was not Val so she wouldn't mother him. Abby of course wanted Gary for herself and yet I am not sure if he actually would have left her for Abby if Valene hadn't walked out on him, or what do you think?

    That scene in the parking garage seemed to indicate that if Gary could have chosen he would have saved his marriage with Valene if he could. Yet at the same time he was irrevocably drawn to Abby. I mean he tried to end the affair but he couldn't. So it was almost like if it was out of his control and he wanted and needed both women in his life.

    I didn't like them together since Ben cheated on Valene when he was with Cathy. I think I would have liked them if they were both free. But since he was married and Valene was Cathy's sister in law it was such a big betrayal. I didn't want Ben to hurt Valene and I think him having an affair did ruin his character a bit. I can see why Valene trashed his place since she had expected better from "solid old Ben". Of course Valene, being who she was, ended up forgiving Ben for his infidelity too just like she forgave Gary. It was not in her nature to cheat on her husband. I remember when Abby and Gary began their affair Valene and Olivia was rained in at some diner and this man who owned the place tried to come on to her and she told him no. Yet Valene was willing to forgive the men she loved for hurting her since she loved them so much that she didn't want to lose them. :(
    Come to think of it she was actually of a very forgiving nature since she also forgave Lilimae for abandoning her as a child, for never telling her about her half-brother until they were both adults and for turning her and Lucy away. So yes Valene was a forgiving person.

    Oh yeah Ray and Jenna was also a couple that kind of came out of the left field. Yet I liked them together. Probably because I watched the season when they were married on the show first! :D

    Oh absolutely they had amazing chemistry. I love how they could express so much just with their way of looking at each other. :)
    Also I think a part of why they worked so well together is because they are friends so they know each other well and there's definitely a comfort level there. Also I would say that the connection between them is still there today. :)

    Finally I've made a new Gary & Val fan music video that I've added to my Youtube the other day. So I figured I'd share it here too in case you haven't seen it yet:



    Enjoy! :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
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  13. Mustard

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    Perhaps not, even though Gary was never serious with anyone else in those 16 years they were apart while Val only had one other man for a while (Rusty). Gary and Val clearly weren't really over each other, probably felt like they had unfinished business from back then, yet they were scared of rejection or that J.R. would never let them function together.

    And Gary was so insecure at that time. Lucy hurt him with those comments.

    Yes, a great moment :)

    Lucy not being in Knots Landing ever again is slightly disappointing, as is Barbara Bel Geddes not showing up in California for 1 or 2 episodes. I reckon Lucy would have fitted in very well in the later seasons, although not in the early seasons. I think Charlene's (and Barbara's) lack of appearances on Knots Landing had something to do with Dallas and Knots Landing having different schedules and timings, and it wasn't easy to always have characters crossing over, even though they did them for a while. After Jock's Will, crossovers were confined to storylines from Seasons 5-7, with the character crossovers from Dallas to Knots Landing stopping. And after Bobby was brought back from the dead on Dallas, those crossovers all stopped.

    As for Annie, Karen Allen went on to Raiders of the Lost Ark. Bigger fame.

    Gary did tell Judy in his own way, even Abby told Judy in her way before that. Gary said that he needed Val for her strength and would be lost without her. Even then, Judy didn't get it. Judy thought that Gary was stuck in an unhappy marriage to Val and was too pathetic in being unable to leave his wife, even though the reality was that Gary loved his marriage, he and Val had been trying for a baby, and his unhappiness was all to do with his own insecurity about his own weaknesses as a person and his fear of responsibility, and he was flattered by Judy looking up to him. Of course, Judy's attitude meant that she no longer looked up to Gary but treated him with a certain contempt so Gary no longer had any attraction to Judy at all, and while it did help Gary and Val to reconnect and get an even deeper bond for a while, it didn't change the fact that Gary's issues which led to the affair with Judy never went away, with Abby waiting her chance.

    If Val had taken Gary back at that time, Gary would not have left Val. And that would been bad in the long run for both Gary and Val as people. Gary would not have sorted himself out had he just stayed with Val. Gary would have continued to find Abby irresistible anyway. There's no way he would have just fended her off, because the sexual stuff was only a part of it, even bigger was Abby challenging him to push himself harder in life and helping him to address his problems. What Val offered was a great typical marriage and security, but she couldn't sort out Gary's deeper personal issues, and was in fact hiding Gary away from addressing most of his problems. Gary was often bored at that time, and hated being insecure. He couldn't just carry on like that, but Val was scared that he'd fall apart by addressing his demons and that she'd lose him again.

    Fast forward to 1993, at the end of TV series when Abby came back to the Cul-de-sac and saw Gary and Val together. Now, this Gary would only find Abby attractive on the sexual side, and even then probably wouldn't have an affair anymore even if Abby had come on to him strong. There was no longer any of the other dynamics between Gary and Abby that had existed a decade earlier. The older Gary was secure, confident, comfortable in his skin, comfortable as a husband to Val and father to Bobby and Betsy, and comfortable with his weaknesses. Completely different dynamics to before.

    Yes, it was partly out of his control. He needed Abby to help him address his problems and to challenge him in life, but he was terrified at losing the security that Val gave him and he wanted to save their marriage. Of course, even when they were apart, Gary never really did lose Val's security. I don't think even Abby realized the depth of Gary and Val's bond until years later, like when she was telling it to Jill.

    Unlike Abby who used sex as a business tool a lot of the time, for Val it was a deeply personal bond. Val was old fashioned that way. Val didn't have that many partners, really, including during her 1962-1978 and 1982-1990 separations from Gary. She had a bond with that Rusty from years before Gary and Val reconciled, and with Ben, and for a while was in lust with Danny, but that's about it, apart from Parker and Verna Ellers. Gary was always the one for her, the one who swept her off her feet back in 1961 when she was 15.

    Val is a nice person, full of energy and very stubborn. The immediate impression of her being a pretty weak person is deceiving.

    Yes, they still have that chemistry. It was in that 2005 reunion, too. Joan doesn't have to say much to take them back emotionally to those times.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
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  14. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

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    You know it's funny how you mention JR since it was established in the last episode of Dallas that if JR had never been born he wouldn't have driven Gary off Southfork. Gary would never have begun drinking and he never would have met Valene until in 1991.

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    Meaning they never would have had Lucy or the twins and yet even in that alternative universe they did end up meeting and were immediately drawn to each other.

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    So it was hinted at that they were meant to be. ;)

    Still can you imagine Gary being a lawyer? :think:

    That's what he was in the alternative universe. I don't know but I find it more likely that he would have run Southfork...

    Oh well it was a different Gary and a different Valene we saw in that episode of Dallas.

    Anyway as for what did happen, I agree that the fact that neither Gary nor Val ever got remarried while they were apart or had any serious relationships, with the exception of maybe Rusty on Val's part, it did indicate that they never got over each other. Yet 16 years is a long time to be apart so no wonder they were "treating each oher like china dolls" in the first season of Knots Landing. I think it was one of the other characters that used that expression to describe them. Either Karen or Laura?

    They were clearly scared of failing at marriage again, which is also why they didn't tell Lucy about their remarriage since they didn't want to hurt her if they failed again. Yet by not telling her they did end up hurting her.

    Thanks for explaining about Annie. I never knew that. :)

    Also I agree that BBG should have guest starred as Miss Ellie. I mean Gary was her favorite son and she bought them the house in Knots Landing and yet she never once came for a visit? Does anyone know why that was?

    I mean storywise it really doesn't make any sense at all. :confuse:

    Actually it's a shame that Bobby's death severed the ties between the two shows since I would have loved to see Miss Ellie meet her grandkids just once. :(
    Likewise with Lucy and Lilimae they never met either.

    I agree that Lucy would have fitted well into the show later on. In fact I wish they had moved her and Mitch to Knots Landing to be the young newlywed couple in 1985 instead of writing them off to Atlanta, off screen. It would have open up endless plot possibilities and Lucy could have interacted with her parents, siblings, step-siblings, step-parents and other grandma. It would have been awesome. :)

    Yet it never happened and I think the main reason was probably due to money. My guess was that having been on Dallas for 7 seasons already Charlene might have been too expensive for Knots Landing's budget. Then it was cheaper to invent and bring on a new character like Paige.

    Oh definitely Judy completely misunderstood Gary. He was happy with his marriage and had no intention of leaving Valene for her or anyone else. Yet she failed to see that since she thought Gary and Valene's marriage mirrored what she and Earl had and it didn't.

    Also in a sense it felt like there was a childlike quality about Gary and Valene's characters in the early seasons of the show. Although they were both adults and in their 30s when they remarried they had a lot of issues that hadn't been sorted out. Both had the loss of Lucy to cope with and living with the guilt of not being able to raise their daughter. Both also had parental issues. For Gary the problematic relationship was with his father while Val's was with her mother and feeling abandoned while her mom went to persue her singing career. Jock's death helped Gary resolve the negative feelings he had about his father while having Lilimae move in with Val helped them forge a stronger bond and resolved that relationship for Valene.

    I love the first episode we see Lilimae on the show. It was right before Lucy came out for a visit and the episode laid the groundwork for that episode. It added lots of character depth. There was especially a scene after a party where all the bottled up emotions that Val had held inside of her came out. When she spelled out to Lilimae how she blamed her for not letting her and Lucy into her home so that JR's men could take her baby away from her. It made Lilimae realize just how deeply she had hurt her daughter and that she had to leave since she didn't think they would be able to bridge that gap.

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    It's such a powerful scene full of raw emotions. Julie & Joan were especially great in it. :clap:

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    Yet at the same time Lilimae being there brought out the little girl in Valene and she didn't want her mama to leave her again. So she forgave her mother.

    I agree the bond between Abby and Gary was not purely sexual. Their relationship ran deeper and she did help Gary evolve as a person. Take his alcoholism for instance. When Gary fell off the wagon when he was with Val she didn't know what to do and let Gary walk all over her. He even hit her when drunk. Yes it was by accident but still. Abby didn't stand for that kind of behavior. She didn't let anyone walk all over her and started plotting behind Gary's back to seize control of their joint business if he wasn't able to handle it.

    Which brings me to another question. Do you think Abby really loved Gary or was she just using him?

    I want to believe that she did love him even if she treated him badly at times. I mean before they got married she had me convinced that she did love him. Yet as soon as they were married she started scheming behind his back, she created Apolune and used his money to finalize her own business ventures without telling him, she cheated on him with Greg Sumner etc.
    Pretty soon Gary wisened up and although he loved Abby he learnt not to trust her.

    Ironically he trusted Valene so much that he turned to her for advice if he should marry Jill even though they had been divorced for a long time. He told her that he trusted her more than anyone else in his life.

    I agree Gary in 1993 would not have slept with Abby. He was happy in his marriage and with his children. He had grown up at that point and weren't going to risk losing it all for some great sex.


    Oh yeah I love that scene when Abby told Jill. "Let the soon to be second Mrs. Ewing give the soon to be third Mrs. Ewing a word of advice. The first Mrs. Ewing never goes away. Ever." :giggle:

    I loved how that short confrontation planted a seed in Jill's mind that made her feel insecure about her own relationship with Gary.

    But yes the bond between Gary and Val remained even when they were apart and in times of crises Val always turned to Gary and he was always there for her.

    Yes Val was a romantic and Gary definitely was the love of her life. She did share a love with Ben but Gary's shadow was always looming over their marriage.

    I agree. The episode "The loudest word" comes to mind. You know the one where they thought she might have cancer and she had to have a colonostomy?

    Gary totally fell apart and didn't know where he would be without her. He couldn't handle it at all while she was the strong one. She handled her own health crisis in an almost stoic way and was at times more concerned about Gary than about herself. So no she was not weak at all.

    Definitely. I love that reunion. :)

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    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
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  15. Mustard

    Mustard Soap Chat Fan

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    Karen used the expression, and Val herself.

    :)

    I like to think that both Miss Ellie and Lucy visited a few times off screen. The best time for Barbara to make an appearance would have been after Bobby's death, but she had only just returned to Dallas at the time with Donna Reed suing Dallas too, so politically it would have been even more difficult than normal at that time.

    Lucy and Lilimae would have got on great. They'd have been very close and mischievious with their sense of humours, and they would have wound Val up.

    It's a shame about the severed connection after Bobby's death, but I don't see how they had much choice really.

    Yes, something like that.

    Yes, spot on.

    And then they could deal with a lot of those insecurities that they had before.

    It was the worst moment of Val's life at the time, that moment when Lilimae turned her and Lucy away and then J.R.'s heavies ripped Lucy out of Val's hands. It's a mother's worst nightmare, and she resented Lilimae for it, and understandably so. Val was also close as a young girl to her middle aged father Jeremiah, while young Lilimae was always out seeking singing stardom. Jeremiah was already dead by the time of her first marriage to Gary, as they were a poor family, so that would be another regret for Val.

    For Val, I'd say the later stealing of the twins was an even greater trauma. At least with Lucy, Val knew the score despite how brutal it was. With the twins, there were terrible answered questions and doubts about her own sanity as nobody believed her.

    Lilimae has a good heart. I loved her relationship with Chip, even though we the viewers know it's based on a lie. They had a very good connection.

    Val lied that Gary tried to commit suicide in order to get him sectioned. She did what she needed to do then, but she had been despairing during that whole period as Gary fell apart, from when he had that "I won't be talked down to in my own house" rant. Abby would have probably said "Get the hell out of here", but Val is like "Gary, please let me or them help you". Abby would probably try to get through to Gary later, like when he was getting drunk when hanging out with Ciji, but Abby's tolerance threshold wasn't very high.

    Abby loved Gary. But as she once told Greg, she loved business and money more than she loved any man. If Abby doesn't think Gary is fully up to the task of looking after their business, she isn't going to take the chance of him messing it up and her losing control in the process. She's going to let Gary think he's got a certain control while she hopes that he can handle the situation and prove her worst fears about him wrong, but she's ready if he does mess up. Again, this builds up Gary's character. Gary himself over time got to learn what Abby was all about, how she wasn't really to be trusted like how he could trust Val. Gary eventually realized that Abby wasn't for him long term, but his relationship and marriage to Abby did a lot for him as a person, as well as looking after Olivia and Brian.

    Yes, he does. Val makes Gary feel completely safe and secure like nobody else can. As Abby once lamented "Whenever Gary is feeling a bit insecure, off he goes running to Valene".

    Agreed.

    A brilliant quote, and the very start of Jill's decline into her own madness. She never did become the third Mrs. Ewing.

    Yes. Jill was largely very likeable before that scene, but she really lost her way afterwards when she saw that what Abby had said was very true.

    I love that scene at the beach when Val says something like "Gary, what kind of mess have we made of our lives here"? Even then, in that conversation, it was like "We should be together, so why aren't we?".

    That's when Bobby came over and tried to knock some sense into Gary. Bobby is like "Get in there and support your wife", while Gary's instinct is "I love her. What am I going to do without her? I need to get away from here. I can't deal with it". Gary's whole instinct at that time was to run away from his fear.

    That's it :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
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  16. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

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    First of all I was wondering what's everyone's opinion about how Val hid the twins' paternity from Gary?
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    Should she have told him from the beginning?

    Also do you think it was right or wrong of Valene not to tell the twins that Gary was their real father?

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    The happy family once the truth had finally come out. :)


    Thanks. :)

    Yikes imagine if Donna Reed had shown up on Knots Landing as Miss Ellie. Then the viewers who only watched Knots would think she was Miss Ellie! :eck:

    I'm sure you're right that Lucy and Lilimae would have gotten along great. :)
    Lilimae would probably have been amused by Lucy's story of the time she tried to run away from home and ended up singing at a bar. It was from way back when Lucy wanted to become a singer.

    Then as for the dream season. I think the crossovers could still have continued if they had wanted to. They only had to steer clear of conversations about Bobby. Also the only character who could not have crossed over was Bobby since he was dead on Knots.

    I agree that losing the twins was the straw that broke the camel's back. It was what made Val run away from home and then become Verna since being Valene was too painful for her. She just couldn't deal with the loss of her babies. :(
    Also knowing they were alive butthat nobody believed her must have been lonely and horrible for her. But I think that moment when she became Verna was very poignant. She just washed Valene away and became Verna.

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    In many ways it was like Verna was a younger version of Valene. So it was like she regressed into the girl she once was. :)
    This was also another marvellous performance by Joan. :clap:

    Of course there was one person who knew all along that the babies were alive and that was Abby, who got that midnight phone call asking for some info about the father to the babies in question.

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    But of course she couldn't tell anybody about what she knew.

    They did, also someone on this board said that it was foreshadowing for Joshua's introduction, which I think was spot on. Lilimae must have become so fond of Chip because he reminded her of the son she had lost contact with. Of course Chip was different from Joshua in some ways. The scene where Lilimae talks to Chip in his coffin after he has died comes to mind. It was so sad and Julie's performance totally got to me how she was crying her eyes out. :clap:


    I agree that's the difference between how the two women dealt with Gary's alcoholism. I also think it took Val a long time to realize just how sick Gary was. There's this one scene where the doctor asks him to make a choice between calling his wife or having a drink and he goes for the drink not knowing that Val is watching him. I think that's the moment that really opened up Val's eyes to how sick Gary really was.


    True. At that point Gary had been running away from everything his whole life. It wasn't until he and Val got remarried and moved to Knots Landing that he stopped running and at this point they hadn't been married very long so his natural instinct was still to run. It took Bobby and also Sid to make him realize that he could deal with his crisis in another way.

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    You know that's it. She loved Gary but she loved her business and money more. I'd also say she loved her kids more than she loved her men. The way she dealt with Olivia's drug use was great. She was very hands on and didn't dodge the problem at all. I think it was Lilimae who made her realize that she could lose her daughter if she didn't deal with it since at firs she tried the same approach as she did when Gary was drunk, threaning to throw Olivia out and that didn't work. So then she locked herself in with her instead.

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    I think Gary understood Olivia's addiction problem better than Abby having been in a similar situation with his alcoholism. I loved the father-daughter moments that the two of them shared. Being a step-parent to Olivia and Brian definitely built up Gary's character like you said. It made him grow up and take responsibility. :)


    That's another great quote. :)

    Yes she really opened up Jill's eyes to Val & Gary's relationship. So what's your opinion of how Jill declined into madness?

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    I thought it was a bit far-fetched how she went from a mostly intelligent woman to a psycho over the course of just a year. :confuse:
    Yet it made for an interesting plot since people got to ask themselves who they believed, Jill or "poor Val"?

    Jill was a respectable D.A. who worked with Mack for the governor while Val had a history of mental illness when she turned into Verna. So on paper I can see why Val had a hard time getting anyone to believe her. Heck even Gary doubted her at first before he and Karen realized that Val was telling the truth. :(


    Oh yeah that beach scene is awesome. I love how they end up laughing even though it's not really funny.
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  17. Seaviewer

    Seaviewer Soap Chat TV Fanatic

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    Well, yes, she should. But with that kind of thing the longer it goes on, the harder it is to fix. But it was good the way Gary slowly figured it out but waited for Val to tell him, and then how it came out in such a low key way.
    Again, yes. But she couldn't very well tell them without telling him.
    Agreed. It's just a matter of how they were written.
    I think her decline is quite believable in the context of a soap opera. It was quite gradual and only in retrospect did I realise the impact of Abby's "third Mrs Ewing" remark.
     
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  18. Mustard

    Mustard Soap Chat Fan

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    Yes, she should have. For all that Val loved Gary and was always there to give him security when he needed it, I think she also resented him for marrying Abby when there was the chance at the time that Val and Gary could get back together. Olivia told Val on the phone that Gary and Abby had just got married, and it hurt Val like hell. I also think that she cared about Ben's feelings and Ben was a very dependable guy, at least until late in Season 7, so she wanted him to be the legal father of her kids as he was more reliable. Of course, Ben knew from the start that he couldn't be the biological father because the twins were conceived before she had first slept with Ben, so deception was out of the question.

    In a way, it's funny how long it took Gary to know the truth for sure, when other characters knew it so early.

    I must say that I found Val at her most unlikeable ever when Gary was trying to get legally recognized as Bobby and Betsy's father later on.

    Thank goodness that didn't happen.

    Yes. She buried Valene deep in her subconscious. The only way to cope with the trauma.

    I don't think Lilimae ever quite connected with her son Joshua like she did with Chip. Joshua was too far gone when he arrived, with the deep religious indoctrination. Chip was also gone, but he was a cold, calculating sociopath, who could play the nice, caring person very well indeed.

    Those Bottom of the Bottle episodes really are classic. It shows very well how quickly non-functioning alcoholics like Gary hit rock bottom fast if they fall off the wagon. Other alcoholics are different, but Gary's shows a particular kind of alcoholic who just cannot function day-to-day properly unless they are teetotal. It's different from Sue Ellen's alcoholism or Digger's alcoholism.

    He overcame his fear. A big step forward for him.

    I don't know about you, but I personally think that Abby had more problems being a mother to Olivia compared to Brian, and not just because of the drugs. It's the classic mother-daughter troubles. She wanted Olivia to be as strong as her and as smart as her, and took a "laying down the law" approach, and Olivia always rebelled. Even as a young kid she was probably closer to Val and Karen than her own mother. They would argue a lot, Olivia did drugs, had a relationship with and married a gangster's nephew etc. Whereas with Brian, I think the mother-son relationship worked perfectly for both.

    I personally think, regarding the situation with Abby and Olivia, that kids like Olivia if they don't listen to you need to learn from their own mistakes or give them the chance to prove you wrong. She did learn with the drugs, but not really with other things, and Abby was at the end of her tether when it came to Olivia marrying a gangster's nephew. I don't think Abby played the situation very well with Olivia.

    Absolutely.

    Done pretty well, I thought. Perhaps they could have prolonged her descent from the normal jealous woman to psycho phase, but they wanted it for the Season 9 cliffhanger where she tries to kill Val and make it look like a suicide.

    Jill was counting on that perception, and her alibi of being in someone else's bed at the time.

    That's it. Great scene.
     
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  19. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Good points, in order to tell the twins she needed to tell Gary first. I agree that naturally Val should have told Gary right away that she was pregnant. But I can also see why it was hard for her to do that since a part of her was in love with Ben at the time and Gary had chosen to marry Abby instead of getting back together with her. Yet I remember a time when he told Val that he wished the babies were his. It was when she was still pregnant and they were plotting to get Karen & Mack back together again. However I guess it's likely he would have left Abby for her after his marriage would have turned sour when he found out about the Apolune business and filed for divorce. He might have chosen Val then if he had known the babies were his. It makes me think of this scene at the end of the season when Val sees Gary after "he returns from the dead" and she is all over him and then Abby calls his name and he leaves Val. It's just so heart breaking.

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    Great acting though. Even in these screen caps you can see all the emotions. :hat:


    I agree. Val was hurt by that Gary picked Abby over her and a part of her wanted Ben to be the twins father. I remember that scene when she told Ben that she was pregnant but that he wasn't the father. It was so sad. How he went on and on about all the things he wanted to do with his child and how he loved the baby already and yet Val had to tell him that Gary was the father of the baby. I felt so bad for Ben in that scene. :(

    I also think it was perfect timing how Ben and Val agreed that they would get married and he would be the twins father.
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    He forbid her to tell anyone that Gary was the father and just at that moment when they made that agreement Gary of course figured it out.

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    But then Val couldn't confirm it since she had promised Ben that she wouldn't.


    Oh absolutely. Karen and Mack and even Abby knew who the real father was even before the twins were born. Gary was like the last to know. I think the first time he confronted her about it was in this scene.

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    She didn't confirm it but that's when she knew that he knew...

    I agree. It was Jill who put Gary up to it though. I think it was a scheme on her part in order to keep Val and Gary apart because at that point Gary tried to break up with Jill since he wanted to get back together with Val. But after Jill confronted Val about Gary she gave him the cold shoulder so he took Jill back. I was so sure that Gary and Val would get back together at that point but Jill and the custody battle prevented that and their relationship detoriated completely instead. :(

    I think it's pretty sad how they could go from this when Lilimae left...

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    to this when Gary sued Val to get visitation rights...
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    Anyone else who would have preferred for Gary & Val to get properly back together again already this season?

    Absolutely I think the first sign that something was wrong was when Jill started drawing on the kids photos. Then she sent Valene those letters from Ben. Her aim seems to have bene to drive her rival crazy.

    Yeah Jill sure tried to make Val look like she was crazy when Val knew all along that Jill was the crazy one. I felt so bad for Val at that point when Jill tried to kill her. What a psycho.
    Although I do think the plot ruined Jill's character as she had been mostly likable up until that point.

    Wow! I'd never thought of Chip as being a sociopath before! :omg:
    What made you draw that conclusion?

    I always assumed that him killing Ciji was an accident and that he did feel remorseful for it. But it's possible I've interpreted it all wrong. :confuse:

    Then as for Joshua. I think he was rather shy, sweet boy when he first arrived in Knots Landing. It was later on when he got the television show and fame that he seemed to change. So yes his father did a number on him with the religious indoctrination. But fame also didn't do him any favors since he couldn't handle it and got jealous of Cathy when she got more fanmail than he did etc.

    Yet I think Lilimae had a chance of reaching Joshua and breaking through his wall. But she was caught between her two children since Val wanted Joshua out of the house since she was afraid of the twins safety. :(

    I think this conversation between Lilimae and Joshua was really poignant.

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    Such great acting. Very emotional. :cry:

    So in some ways I think she was closer to Joshua than she ever was with Chip and yet she did seem to take Chip's death harder. Why do you think that was?

    I agree. Gary couldn't function at all when he'd been drinking. I wonder how he managed to keep from falling off the wagon when Danny forced him to drink?:think:
    I guess that showed that he had matured as the old Gary would have been caught after the first taste of alcohol.

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    I agree that Abby's relationship with Brian was much easier than the one she had with Olivia. I think a part of the problem was that Olivia was basically a good kid. She had a different moral compass of right and wrong than Abby. So when she found out about some of the rotten things her mother had done she couldn't handle it since up until that point she had looked up to her mom and now to find out that her mom was capable of lying etc. It hurt Olivia. So in some ways Olivia was more like her aunt Karen than her mother.

    You know originally I was on Olivia's side regarding Harold. I thought she should be able to marry whoever she wanted to. She was an adult and she was in love. But in retrospect I think a lot of what Abby said was true. Olivia was too young to get married. She was only 18. She could have gone to college first and gotten married later on. Naturally Olivia was stubborn and refused to listen since she was rebelling against her mom by marrying Harold anyway. When the marriage was a fact Abby could have played it differently. She could have let Olivia keep her car and her allowance. It was petty how she took those things away but at the same time she wanted Olivia to learn how to become independent.
     
  20. Mustard

    Mustard Soap Chat Fan

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    They'd tease the reconciliation possibility, and then it was gone again. I think Season 5 DVD would have been too soon, but it could have happened after Gary and Abby's divorce happening around the same time that Ben disappeared, or after Jill's death, but it wasn't until Danny was seen as a complete psycho by Val that she and Gary got back together. Even after Danny's death, they teased that the reunion might be shortlived with Val's brain virus.

    And wasn't there that scene with a toy house, when Jill was asking Betsy what her mother and Gary did? And yeah, they really teased a Ben return at that time, even using his voice too. And as I've said before, the feeling when Ben left near the end of Season 8 was that he would definitely be back in the future, but he never did come back.

    It's a worst nightmare. Not only is somebody effectively killing you, but they are going to make it look like a suicide so that nobody else will know the truth that you were murdered. Danny tried the same with Gary later, which also backfired, although Danny was already dead once Gary came back to his proper state of mind, whereas Val had to contend with Jill for a while. Funnily enough, Jill became quite scared of Val towards the end of her life once Val had ditched her fear and seen Jill for what she really is, so the dynamic between the two of them had completely changed. If Val is vulnerable, she won't stay that way for long. She adapts, gets tougher and fights back. This is a woman who stood up to J.R. as a teenager even when wounded, don't forget.

    Everything about him. His history as Tony Fenice and him being a fugitive from physical abuse, enough to change his whole identity and move elsewhere. He can then forge new relationships and come across as a nice guy to a lot of people, although Mack saw through him early. There's also this thing of easing his own conscience through something like his relationship with Lilimae. It's like "I'm kind to her. She likes me and we're almost like mother and son. I'm not that bad, really. If she ever sees the real me, I'll deal with it then, but I hope our relationship stays like it is". And then his girlfriend Ciji, a woman very open, easy going and honest with a knack of annoying a lot of people. She wasn't ruthless enough when she saw the real Chip and paid with her life when he felt threatened by her stubbornness.

    Compare Ciji's relationship with Chip to Cathy's relationship with Joshua. Cathy was more fortunate because she was a more manipulative character than Ciji and could save herself before it was too late.

    He meant it when he did it. Sociopaths can then switch off the killer and become a normal person. Look at his relationship with Diana too. Diana was absolutely terrified of him for a while after he kidnapped her, but before long she had fallen for him strongly. A classic case of Stockholm syndrome, which is quite common in kidnappings, especially with young impressionable victims.

    I think Chip was the best villain in Knots Landing, personally. So multi-layered.

    A lot of it was already there when Joshua arrived in Knots Landing. I think he was looking for something different in his life, something to stop the downward spiral.

    Exactly. He couldn't cope with it at all, and all the ugliness in his mind came out.

    Yes. Joshua might have had a chance not to completely ruin himself if Val had been in a better place at the time. At another time, she could have got through to her brother, but her mind was largely elsewhere as it was with the stolen babies storyline.

    With Joshua and Lilimae, he's her son, but it was like they were both hoping that their relationship and circumstances were somewhat different. With Chip and Lilimae, while no relation, the mother and son like relationship that they had was loved by both of them, although Chip knew it was a lie. Chip and Lilimae were happier. Joshua was too obviously damaged. really. And of course, even when Lilimae knew the truth about Chip, she still felt strong emotion, sadness, anger and regret that the Chip she liked was a lie. With Joshua, it was devastating for her but I reckon a part of her knew that he was too damaged.

    As he said, it tasted bad. Alcoholism is largely in the mind. So with Gary, he didn't lapse, a horrible villain forced alcohol down his throat. When he sobers up and is still alive, there's no turmoil like there would be if he had fallen off the wagon through his own choice.

    Where I live, 18 is fine to decide yourself to get married. It might be wrong for Olivia to marry Harold, and you can tell her that, but I think Abby went over the top. I'd actually challenge Olivia to prove me wrong if she didn't listen. And if she messes up, I can tell her that I explained it all along, and ask her to learn lessons for the future. If she proves me wrong, then I learn a lesson.

    In Britain, where I live, there are different laws in different parts. In England and Wales, you can get married at 16 and 17, but only if you have permission from two parents and/or legal guardians, and you have to be 18 to get married without parental permission in England and Wales. In Scotland, however, there's a different law, where you can get married at 16 without parental permission, so we often have cases in Britain of 16 and 17 year olds from England and Wales eloping to Scotland in order to get married without parental permission.
     
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