Gary & Valene Appreciation Thread

Discussion in 'Knots Landing' started by Karin Schill, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

    Message Count:
    4,164
    Trophy Points:
    4,642
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Sweden
    Ratings:
    +8,071
    Gender:
    Female
    Member Since:
    September 2004
    I never interpreted it like Val's brain virus was going to break them up. I just thought it was one of those bad times that they had to go through together.

    I do agree however that they should have gotten back together again after Gary was divorced from Abby and Ben had deserted Valene. The way they had her fall for Danny instead who turned out to be a real psycho didn't make any sense. :confuse:
    Especially since everything in the first half of season nine was leading up to a reconcilation.

    uvs190210-017.JPG

    uvs190210-005.JPG

    uvs190210-001.JPG
    So surely it would have been better if they had been properly back together again after this instead of it being just a weak moment...
    uvs190210-002.JPG

    uvs190210-003.JPG

    At this point Gary wanted to get back together with Valene and even broke up with Jill to be with her. But then Valene brushed him off after Jill had confronted her about it.

    uvs190210-012.JPG

    uvs190210-013.JPG

    So apparently Val didn't want them to get back together. Why do you think that was?

    I think that Valene was afraid to let Gary in again only to have him leave her again. So she'd rather be the one who would hurt him. At least that's the way I interpreted it.


    I remember that scene, such a wicked way to pry about Gary and Valene's relationship.

    I never thought Ben left for good either. But the first time I watched the show I was glad to see him go since I wanted Val and Gary together and I didn't like how Ben cheated on Val with Cathy or the whole Jeanne Hackney plot. The second time around I grew to love Ben and was sad to see him leave. :(

    Yeah Val had a lot of backbone and always learnt from her experiences and grew stronger all the time. I liked that scene in Jill's office when she was all like "it's not gonna be poor Val anymore. From now on it's gonna be poor Jill" and Jill was completely fearing what Valene might do to her. Yet I never thought Valene was capable of murder so when Jill suddenly turned up in the trunk of Gary's car it sure puzzled me as I couldn't figure out who had killed her and planted the body there! :eck:
    Did you figure it out the first time you saw it or was it a twist you didn't see coming?

    Also it's sort of funny how so many pieces of Jill's perfect crime backfired on her. I mean first of all, her intended victim survived and could tell on her. Then her alabi had a STD and wanted her and Gary to get tested for it. I think that part was hilarious! :D

    Oh yeah the way he murdered Ciji because she refused to have an abortion was ruthless. Or maybe it was because she threatened to expose his real identify?:think:


    I agree, Ciji was more innocent and sweet somehow. Cathy had already spent time in jail before she came to Knots Landing and that experience made her tougher. In a way Cathy and Joshua was completely mismatched and it seemed like he was the sweet and innocent one whereas she was the seductress that brought him down with her. Yet their relationship completely changed once they were married and he became the abusive, controlling partner. :(


    I think the problem was that Diana loved Chip. I think he was her first love really so a part of her thought it was romantic that he would do anything for her. Yet the more logical part of her knew he was a bad guy and that she should get away from him. So Diana was torn between her love for Chip and her knowledge of what was right. Torn between her lover/husband and her family.

    Unfortunately I thought that plot ruined Diana's character. Up until that point I thought she was smart and someone I could identify with, after that I thought she was stupid and annoying. :(


    I think you are probably right about that since I didn't even realize he was a villain until he'd been on the show for a whole season. I just thought of him as a con-man. But not really a villain. I guess that was one of the Knots strenght that they didn't always let their audience in on who was a bad guy until later on. So when Chip and Jill first showed up we couldn't know how crazy they would turn out to be.

    I remember I even liked Danny when he first showed up. :embarrassed:
    But at least with him he showed his true colors faster than Chip or Jill and everyone could tell what a jerk he was. Everyone except Val that was who still went ahead and married the guy even after everybody told her not to!

    I guess Joshua must have held a lot of resentment inside of him for his mother abandoning him as a child. It must have completely messed him up. Also his father hitting him didn't help either. I guess it taught Joshua not to trust in people.


    I think a part of Joshua's problem was that he had lacked his mother all his life and probably had thought to himself that if only his mother hadn't died when he was a baby he would have been happier. So Joshua finds out that his mother didn't die and got to move in with her and have a relationship with her. That should have made him feel happy and contented but it didn't since instead it made him resent his mother for abandoning him. On top of that he felt guilty for sleeping with Cathy without being married to her since he thought it was a sin. Or at least that's what his father had taught him. So Joshua basically learnt that everything he had believed in all his life had been a lie and that brought out an identity crisis where he had to figure out who he was. That he also became famous at that point didn't help at all.

    Then as for Chip and Joshua's deaths, Lilimae did react differently to them both. With Chip she had tried to kill him herself when he was released for Ciji's death and refused to take responsibility after she had talked to him. It made her realize what a cold man he was. So when he finally died a part of her thought that he had gotten what was coming to him. Yet she was still sad since she had loved him like a son. I think that showed in that scene where she's talking to him when he's in the coffin.

    uvs190210-020.JPG

    Still I think her grief over Joshua was harder for her to bear, since at least with Chip she knew that she had done what she could to save him. But with Joshua she had failed him as a mother so she blamed herself for her son's suicide/accident. She blamed herself so much that she didn't even want to admit that Joshua had wanted to die. It was easier for her to believe it was an accident and she was even willing to let another man go to jail for murdering her son even when she knew all along how Joshua had died since she was there. So it took Val for her to realize that she had to tell the police what she knew.

    uvs190210-021.JPG

    uvs190210-023.JPG
    Also what made Joshua's death worse was that she had to also answer to Joshua's father, who blamed her for their son's death. :(

    Good point.

    In Sweden you have to be 18 to get married. However you are allowed to get married earlier if you have your parents consent. I have a friend who got married when she was 16, unfortunately by the time she was 23 she was already divorced. :(

    Personally I think it would be better if the legal age to get married would be 21 since when you are a teenager you are not mature enough to make those kind of lifelong decisions. Your brain is not even fully developed until you are 20. So you make hasty decisions that are not very rational. But maybe that's just my opinion. I do have another friend who got married at 18 and who is still happily married to her husband. So I guess it does work out for some people to get married young. :)
     
  2. Mustard

    Mustard Soap Chat Fan

    Message Count:
    358
    Trophy Points:
    377
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +567
    Gender:
    Male
    Member Since:
    23 October 2014
    Val got cold feet. She was glad to be back with Gary in bed for a while but she was not fully over her marriage to Ben, especially with the matter of Bobby and Betsy's parentage complicating things in Val's mind, and she felt a certain unease at that time about what getting back with Gary as a live-in couple would mean. At that point, her tolerance threshold of Gary's faults was lower than usual.

    That's a part of it, too. Fear of getting hurt again.

    I wonder what did happen to Ben in Central America? Was he killed by Contra mercenaries?

    Jill's body in the boot of the car completely threw me the first time I saw it. I didn't know what to think. It looked like Gary had killed her and was disposing of the body, but I also thought that that would be too obvious. Somebody else could have killed her such as Val (although I didn't think Val would kill her either, as you say). Jill accidentally killing herself while trying to frame Gary for kidnap was what it was in the end, and it made more sense than Gary or Val killing Jill.

    It really blew up in her face.

    Joshua blamed Cathy for his "sinning", and his previous self-pity was fading in comparison to his rage at the world. His own doom was then set in motion.

    She was a teenager, though. Teenagers and romance often do cringeworthy and embarrassing things, and make mistakes. Prior to that, Diana was terrified of Chip and tried to escape from him, but he won her round to the extent that she was a strong defender of him after he got caught and impaled.

    True, we knew early on that Chip was a con-man of some sort, but we couldn't have guessed until later about the physical abuse of women and murder in Ciji's case, and the change of identity.

    Yeah, me too. Nice guy Danny only lasted about 2-3 episodes before I started getting suspicious of him. Val took a lot longer to cotton on to what Danny was really like. She was in too much lust with him for a while, I think. Val said to Karen at one point something like "I've never been with any man who makes me feel so alive". Gosh, Danny must have been good in bed for Val to say that. It's the only explanation for Val not seeing Danny's true colours sooner. Mack and Karen realized what Danny was at that time.

    All the more satisfying when Val did dump him and revelled in telling Danny that she was getting back with Gary. Of course, by this point, Danny was scary in a very unnerving way. Danny could send chills down the spine in a way that even Chip and Joshua never could by mixing his raging anger with a coldness as cold as ice. Chip nearly always gave off an air to other people of being in control which largely masked his true colours, but Danny didn't seem to care that people thought he was crazy. Danny was openly crazy and was dangerous as well.

    Yes. Joshua hated himself too, and he hated even more the evil, sinful world around him. That extreme religious line of thought is the path to self-destruction.

    Yes, very true. People with identity crises, or crises with their religious or theoretical thought, are vulnerable.

    The cheek of the man. He did most of the damage to Joshua. Although I still can't blame him fully, because Joshua is responsible for his own actions. Other people with similar backgrounds to Joshua manage to break free from all that indoctrination and feelings of shame for indulging in the "seven deadly sins".

    I like the England and Wales law, 16 and 17 with parental permission, 18 without parental permission.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Seaviewer

    Seaviewer Soap Chat TV Fanatic

    Message Count:
    1,366
    Trophy Points:
    3,896
    Location:
    Australia
    Ratings:
    +1,945
    Gender:
    Male
    Member Since:
    14 September 2001
    Initially she moved onto the ranch for safety. Without Danny, I wonder what it would have taken to get them back together.
    That's typical of abusers, isn't it? Blaming supposed faults of the woman for their own failures.
    They did end up presuming he was dead. It was the one loose end not tied up by the reunion.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

    Message Count:
    4,164
    Trophy Points:
    4,642
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Sweden
    Ratings:
    +8,071
    Gender:
    Female
    Member Since:
    September 2004
    I don't know. Danny did do them a favor when he told Bobby that Gary was his daddy though, as it resolved an issue that they'd had for so many years. I mean that custody battle in season nine sure was nasty. After that it did get awkward between them. Until they both came to their senses and she allowed him the visitations rights and then he tore up the legal document. It had all been for nothing it seemed. Still that scene when they came to a truce was memorable in the sense that their emotions were once again written all over their faces.

    uvs190214-005.JPG

    uvs190214-008.JPG

    uvs190214-009.JPG

    uvs190214-010.JPG

    uvs190214-011.JPG


    Yeah I think they are very controlling and manipulative people. It's sad how Joshua and Cathy's relationship went sour so fast since it didn't start out that way. Or well I guess in retrospect the warning signs were there all the time. But I was too young when I first watched Knots Landing to pick up on them. I thought Joshua and Cathy was a cute and romantic couple. :fp:

    uvs190214-016.JPG
    I think a part of it was that I had a three year gap between when I watched season 6 and 7 and things didn't really get bad between them until in season 7. So that left me with the impression I had of them from season 6.

    Yes, not even marrying Cathy and making their relationship blessed in the eyes of God helped him. He still set out to destroy their love. It was like he didn't think he deserved to be happy. He was that self-destructive. Yet I do believe in his own way he did love Cathy. Unfortunately for her that is, since he didn't want to let her go quietly. He even tried to bring her into death with him. :eck:


    I think it was implied that he either got killed or went underground. I am not sure. He did break off all the contact with Valene but that could have been done to protect her from Jeanne Hackney. So it doesn't necessarily means that he was killed. :think:So chances are that he kept working in Central America for a while and them moved abroad taking another job assignment somewhere. He did seem to have a bit of itchy feet and missed his job as a correspondant. I think it was Doug Sheehan who chose to leave so maybe they kept it open ended in case he'd ever change his mind and decide to return.

    True. I wonder what would have happened if Ben suddenly would have returned after Gary & Val had gotten remarried?
    I mean then Val technically would still have been married to Ben so it would have gotten complicated. Since I think at that point she wanted to be married to Gary. Don't you?

    Actually even though Val loved Ben I don't think she loved him as much as Gary. Since in a way it was always Gary for Valene and poor Ben knew it. I mean how many times didn't he happen to walk in on Val and Gary sharing one of their moments?

    uvs190214-013.JPG

    uvs190214-014.JPG

    Poor Ben, it was like no matter where he turned, Gary was always there seeing his children or Valene.

    I am sure that was a part of it. However not only was Val not over her marriage to Ben. She was still legally Ben's wife which meant that when she and Gary were together she was technically cheating on her husband with her ex. So I think that complicated things in Val's mind too. Gary was cheating on Jill too so I guess when Jill came to see Val she realized that she was now the other woman, doing to someone else what Abby had done to her and that made her feel guilty.

    I think this scene implied that it was not the first time Gary stayed the night though. I mean first they were all laughing about how everyone thought they were having an affair and then after exchanging a couple of looks Gary closed the door and returned to Val rather than going home.

    uvs190214-001.JPG

    uvs190214-002.JPG

    uvs190214-004.JPG

    uvs190214-003.JPG

    So it is implied that the affair had been going on for a while rather than just being a moment of comfort after Laura's death.

    True.

    Good point. I agree that she was more in lust with Danny than in love with him. I mean to really love someone you must know them and Valene didn't really know Danny all that well. It wasn't until after they were married that she found out about that other woman he had abused prior to Amanda. I don't like how they wrote Val at this point. I mean the same woman who threw out her own brother since she feared he would hurt her children now marries a man she barely knows, have him move into her home and become a step-father to her children even after Gary, Aunt Virginia and Amanda tells her what a creep Danny really was. She is so blinded by him it's ridiculous. :mad:
    But yeah I am sure that Valene thought that she was in love with Danny and it wasn't until later that she realized what a mistake she'd made.

    Also as for Aunt Virginia, am I the only one who thought that she was written pretty much in a similar way as Lili Mae would have been?
    It was like she was a replacement for Lilimae. It's a bit of a shame that Julie didn't return as it would have been interesting to see what she would have made of Danny. I think she would ahve seen through his bullshit. Or what do you think?


    I agree. I loved it when Danny when saw Gary and Val kissing on the sofa through the window. :) Like being on the outside looking in. I think Val was still married to Danny then.

    Also the way Danny killed Pat was the worst. Although I do think Danny was better than Chip in the sense that it was an accident. He didn't mean to kill her and he was not without remorse as he did feel bad about killing the woman who had saved him after Val stabbed him. I think Val fighting back instead of letting Danny have his way with her took him by surprise as the other women in Danny's life with was not as strong as Valene.

    I still think it's too young to get married before 18. Still all this talk about marrying young made me think of Gary and Val. They supposedly got married when she was like 15 and he was 17, right? So I was thinking was that even legal in Texas?

    I think they did get married in Texas and I doubt it was legal to get married before 18 there. So it seems sort of odd how they were even allowed to get married that young unless they lied about their age. :think:

    Also Lili Mae was supposdly only 14 when she was married off to a man old enough to be her father. Thinking about that makes me feel sorry for Lili Mae as her situation was no better than the child brides of today that are being married off in their teenage years because their parents has chosen for them to take a husband. I don't think arranged marriages like that are fair to the teenagers in question. :(
    It's different if they do love each other and want to get married like Gary and Val. Still even then getting married before the age of 18 probably means dropping out of High School so in that sense I think it's better to get married later after you have finished school. Which brings me to another question, when did Val finish High School?

    I do know she went back to school in one of the earliers seasons of Knots since her first book was written as a school assignemnt. But I think she went to college then and not High School. Or do I remember it wrong? :confuse:

    Finally let's end this post with this cute cap. :)
    uvs190214-017.JPG
    Do you recognize which scene it is from?
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  5. Seaviewer

    Seaviewer Soap Chat TV Fanatic

    Message Count:
    1,366
    Trophy Points:
    3,896
    Location:
    Australia
    Ratings:
    +1,945
    Gender:
    Male
    Member Since:
    14 September 2001
    At some point she did divorce Ben in absentia so she wasn't committing bigamy when she remarried Gary.

    I think that's definitely what she was. A lot of shows replace characters with similar characters as an alternative to recasting. Look at how quickly Hawkeye got a new best friend and a new nemesis on M*A*S*H when Trapper and Frank left.

    I think she was studying for one of those equivalency diplomas - a GED, is it?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. Mustard

    Mustard Soap Chat Fan

    Message Count:
    358
    Trophy Points:
    377
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +567
    Gender:
    Male
    Member Since:
    23 October 2014
    She married Danny before that.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Mustard

    Mustard Soap Chat Fan

    Message Count:
    358
    Trophy Points:
    377
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +567
    Gender:
    Male
    Member Since:
    23 October 2014
    Douglas Sheehan was going to leave after Season 7, but was talked into staying for another year. I think darkening Ben's character in Season 8, and giving him a dark past with Jean Hackney, was a big part of him agreeing to do that season. Sheehan's departure after Season 8 was completely unrelated to the Season 9 budget cuts which saw Constance McCashin and Julie Harris leave.

    Yes, definitely with Gary by then, but she would have felt bad a bit for Ben had he returned like that.

    Oh yes, Val loved Gary much more, but she did love the fact that Ben was solid and dependable. Gary, by contrast, was very complex and had a lot of weaknesses.

    Abby was annoyed too. She almost accepted it after a while, that Gary would run to Val when feeling insecure.

    I'm sure they had a few nights like that at the time, probably both hoping that they'd get back together, but Gary's relationship with Jill was complicating things a bit.

    Maybe not as quickly as Mack and Karen, but Lilimae would have cottoned on to him before Val certainly, like Virginia did. Danny wasn't exactly the best at hiding his dark side.

    Danny made the mistake that so many others have made, thinking that Val is a vulnerable, soft touch, like she appears on the surface. In reality, get on her bad side, and she's like a dog with a bone. Even if they terrify her close to death and almost kill her, she will get tougher and strike back, as Jill found out. This is a big part of the reason as to why Gary loves her so much, that confidence, that stubborness, that organization, that ability to rebound from setbacks. For an insecure man like Gary who feels that he should be stronger, Val is the perfect fit.

    I'm not sure. I think they could get married younger if there was a pregnancy involved, especially with the stigma of unmarried mothers in those days, but we know from the dialogue in Dallas that Gary and Val didn't sleep together until after they were married at 17 and 15. I'm not that closely in with the culture of rural Tennessee and rural Texas of the early 1960s to know all the answers in regards to this, even though I do get the feeling that certain places had more flexible rules back then.

    On Dallas, there was also Pam's marriage to Ed Haynes, across the border in Mexico, when she was 15. Was that legal in late 1960s Mexico (in Juarez)? A sober Digger found out, and got Pam to annul the marriage.

    The interesting thing about Lilimae, so young when she married near middle aged Jeremiah, is that Lilimae came across in the flashbacks as by far the most domineering in the marriage, the most unreasonable and the most ambitious. Val was always close to her father, but had a complicated relationship with her mother. Val had mother issues that didn't get resolved until Season 3 of Knots Landing.

    A 16-year-old Lucy on Dallas also came across as a sexual devourer of nervous men. I laughed when Pam said that her cousin Jimmy was like 5 compared to Lucy, when Lucy was hinting on chatting up Jimmy at the Barbecue. When you think of Lucy's upbringing, she has seen and heard all the political skullduggery being discussed in her house, has no parents living with her, and has endless time to to indulge in hedonism.

    I think she'd already left high school before she met Gary, as Lilimae was always out chasing her singing dream, so Val had to work to make ends meet with jobs like diner waitressing. That's where she was at when she met Gary, and what she went back to after losing Gary and Lucy. When she got to know Lucy as a teenager, and she reconciled with Gary, she wanted to make better things with her life, for both her sake and Gary's sake.

    Not off the top of my head.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Seaviewer

    Seaviewer Soap Chat TV Fanatic

    Message Count:
    1,366
    Trophy Points:
    3,896
    Location:
    Australia
    Ratings:
    +1,945
    Gender:
    Male
    Member Since:
    14 September 2001
    She actually married Danny?

    I must have blacked that out of my memory. :eek:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1

Share This Page