Discussion in 'Game of Thrones on HBO' started by Emelee, May 12, 2019.
Discuss episode 5. The one before the very last.
I've read somewhere that the title will be "The final War", but not sure about how reliable that is.
I am traumatized. Even more than last episode.
No more words right now.
The episode title was "The Bells." But it could have had as a subtitle "burn them all to hell."
The episode itself was quite epic--it starts with Varys being sentenced to death and Tyrion both betraying him (to save his ass) and offering him a last minute kind gesture. But as Varys is torched by Drogon, his warning sounds as prophetic as Melisandre's. Tyrion makes a last minute arrangement to save the population: if Circei rings the bells and surrenders, Daenerys won't set them all aflame. After Drogon avoids all the successful marksmanship of the iron fleet in episode 4 and blows all scorpions to nothing then brings down the gate, Cercei's army actually lays down their weapons.
And at that moment, the show decides to fulfill one of the worst fan theories, that of the mad queen. Daenerys decides to blow up civilians and surrendered soldiers, and the Unsullied and Dothraki are only too happy to follow in their slaughter. In the mayhem Arya and the Hound have a touching scene, where he tells her she doesn't want to end up like him, fueled only by revenge. She leaves Cercei alone and tries to escape the falling city first, then helps civilians as much as she can. And in another moment of fan expectations fulfilled, the Cleganes fight and both fall to their death. And the Lannister twins die together, as they came to the world.
Through all this, it becomes obvious to Davos, Arya, and clueless Jon Snow that Daenerys has lost it. I guess the show needed her to do something so horrific to have them turn against her. Daenerys early in the episode did tell Tyrion (who continues his stupid moves and miscalculations) that he never even considered why Sansa told him the secret, and he in turn told the master of whispers. Sansa pulled a classical Littlefinger move, which shows she has learned from all the villains she has been around.
Overall it is obvious what kind of a fight we still have ahead, although frankly nobody else has much of an army now, so to off Daenerys it has to be done in Arya style. But who will sit on the iron throne? At this point, I think Sansa would be the most suitable.
Meh. Now that Cersei won't end up in the throne and behead them all I'm not interested *shrug*
I'm still so sad about Jaime. He deserved so much better than to revert back to s1 Jaime.
That final scene between Jaime & Tyrion was amazing. "You're the only one that didn't treat me like a monster". Tyrion even wanted Jaime to save Cercei.
Daenerys is so screwed. There's no future for her after burning all those civilians, children included, for absolutely no reason!!!! The one we were led to believe was the heroine is in no way better than Cercei.
But who will pull the plug on the mad queen? Jon would be my first guess. He's powerful enough and needs SOMETHING to do, as he didn't get to kill The Night King or Cercei.
As Jon has already said he don't want the throne about 100 times by now, who will get it? I still think Samwell Tarly would be a great king. But Sansa would be more realistic. Or Tyrion. Tyrion has screwed up too often though. He stopped knowing things when he cut down on his drinking.
Rest in peace, Ser Jaime.
This episode was absolute CARNAGE, however I think Cersei's finale was lacklustre. It would have been so much better if her death had been more personal, but I do appreciate the visuals of her kingdom literally crumbling down at her feet.
My prediction is that Arya will attempt to murder Daenerys and almost die (or maybe, actually die) in the process and Jon kills Daenerys instead.
I feel quite underwhelmed by it all.
I'm disappointed that Daenerys turned, I really wanted it to be unpredictable. I'm frustrated by how Cersei & Jamie died, again, it's been expected they would leave the world together, that and the fact it wasn't really meaningful. I'd love to have seen Tyrion, Sansa or even Grey Worm kill Cersei.
Of the two major battles this season, I much prefer the earlier one with the Night King.
That said, I still had a great time with the episode, especially the effects and the tension, the score was brilliant in the lead up to the battle.
I think that, unlike Arya killing the Night King (which feels like a show decision), Daenerys turning was a GRRM point, one of those he had shared with the HBO duo. But it does make the first six years of the show a long con played on the viewers (and by implication the readers) who were cheering for her. Then again, the story (show and book) has pulled that twice before, first with Ned Stark and then with the Red Wedding. It's just that these felt unpredictable but not unsupported by the characters' arcs: the Starks had proven themselves quite the political idiots, so of course Ned Start was clueless to Littlefinger's machinations and to the monster Joffrey had become. And Rob broke his word to Frey about marrying his daughter, and thought it'd be a-ok to show up there with a different bride.
What Daenerys actually did was not in itself without political reason: Westeros had forgotten the terror and fear a Targaryen and her dragon can spread, after 300 years of no dragons. They had become the property of lore and myth. Daenerys found herself in a land without love so, as she said, she had to rule on fear alone. What better than to teach all of the continent what happens to those who stand up to her? If they wanted to be saved, they should have themselves turned against Cercei, as the slaves did against their masters in Meereen (something she referenced in her discussion with Tyrion when he tried to draw the parallel) would be her lesson: one takes a side even by doing nothing to change the status quo. Now the horror of King's Landing will be a cautionary take for anyone to never even think of betraying the new queen.
The problem is, Daenerys did not make this as a deeply inhuman but necessary political decision. She acted on pure emotional rage because Circe was still standing, and because her dragon and her friend had been killed by her army. She took it out on the population not to teach them a lesson, but merely to make them all suffer like she suffered in the moment. If she wanted emotional satisfaction and revenge, she could have instead directed her rage and dragon fire to the red keep--there was nothing to stop her. It was not the action that makes her an unfit ruler--this is after all not a democracy, plus even democracies make horrifying, inhuman decisions (as any 1940s inhabitant of Hiroshima and Nagasaki will tell you). The problem was her motivation. Her father was also driven to insanity--but after years of paranoia and delusions. She teleported there in two days.
I feel the same. Although of course parts of the episode were awesome there was something a little anti-climactic about it. Maybe it's cause expectations were so high, it would be hard to live up to them. But also I think they set the bar really high with the battle of Winterfell, it was so much more thrilling, tense and exciting. I can't put my finger on exactly how or why this episode didn't seem to quite hit the right note. It was still enjoyable, and the scale of it and the work that went into it was often jaw-dropping, but I feel like it should have been better.
It certainly was. I did like the moment between Jamie and Cersei but it should have been a much more epic death. Actually before the episode I had envisioned Cersei's death to be not unlike the hound's. Falling from her tower either on fire or into fire. Perhaps it should have been Jamie and Cersei falling to their death in that scene rather than the Mountain and the Hound. They deserved something more memorable and spectacular than what they got. Although I guess there is a certain poetic justice to Cersei dying crushed under a falling building considering how she blew up the sept to kill Marjorie, the high Sparrow and countless other people.
I wouldn't mind it being Sansa but I can't see it happening. I think perhaps Jon will step up to the plate considering how dangerous Dani has become. I'm hoping she doesn't execute Tyrion in the final episode. I'm assuming there will be one or two more major deaths.
It was epic on the highest levels and I think you're right about raising the bar and building up expectations.
I was incredibly excited and ready to jump over the moon when Daenerys blasted through the gates, it was at that point in the episode that I thought it was going to be amazingly superior and even more satisfying than the battle two weeks ago. It started to fall apart (for me) when Daenerys ignored the deal they had made and continued to rip through the towns and civilians. It just became total carnage, unlike the battle against the Night King where everyone was fighting for their lives, this just turned into something so chaotic and without meaning.
The fall of Cersei's kingdom wasn't as satisfying as I was expecting, probably because so many innocents were killed. When realistically, I was dwelling too much on Daenerys frustrating revenge.
I almost wish Tywin was still alive to see just how much Cersei screwed up.
They are magnificent characters and I wanted a sensational death, I could have taken them falling to their deaths as you suggested.
A queen who controls dragons seems like a recipe for disaster. Who would want a ruler with that kind of power?
I knew this wasn't going to end well, but apparently the change came somewhat unexpected?
Yep. Apparently missing a good night's sleep messes with her make-up and her sanity. Or somebody spiked her Starbucks.
"“I probably should’ve told someone the dragon lady was crazy.”
Becoming the new ruler was her Big Mission. Wouldn't it be too predictable if she would simply succeed?
I think someone's going to destroy the throne.
In hindsight, I thought the outcome was perfect, considering it is based on the original story by GMM Martin. I didn´t read the books (yet) but I think most characters are grey-ish rather than black and white. Right now, I can only say that my worst fear is that the very last episode won´t be able to deliver the same kind of spectacle and emotion than the penultimate. Are there enough big characters left to make it possible?
Will Baby Wight show up in the Finale?
I just want to watch the end of this great show that has given me so many hours of excitement and awe. I won´t be one of those who begin to think that have wasted X number of hours of their lives for a show that doesn´t end the way they wanted. I wanted to be surprised and shocked by a series that lasted long, and it has delivered so far. If I want more, I´ll read the books. Now, all I can say is...Dracaris to all the whiners!!
How would you react if they took two of these away of you?
I think Jon will kill Daenerys. He has done nothing big so far in this season, just been in the background. Arya's done enough. She can't possibly get another huge kill, can she?!
The more I think about it, I don't think Tyrion will get the throne. As he told Jaime: all but Jaime has treated him as a monster. I don't think he has enough respect to join the 7 kingdoms again.
As I see it, these are the most likely scenarios for the iron throne:
The 7 kingdoms split as a union
Arya is a fighter, not a leader.
Jon just doesn't want the iron throne.
Gendry is too new a Lord to take the iron throne.
I am hoping for either Sansa or Samwell. However, I don't think a series like GoT could ever end like I wish. Afterall, they disappointed me with Jaime's end.
That seems to be a popular theory online, but one I haven't heard but also could happen is that Daenerys kills Jon. They've already taken her on a dark path, perhaps she now does go full mad queen and also kills the man she loves, who is the one person that truly stands between her and the throne. And it ends with her on the iron throne but completely alone.
That sounds like an ending that I prefer, but I do believe, almost certainly, that Jon will kill her. After all, there must have been some reason he was brought back to life. But I also don't see him as ending up on the iron throne. One possibility: someone else. Better possibility: they decide it is too dangerous to have such centralized power, and they opt to only have their individual lords instead (as @Emelee also suggested), which is after all what is the case in the much larger eastern continent.
I'd be pissed - very pissed.
But I feel that I am strong enough to not go out there and start murdering innocent men, women and children.
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