1. You Know Nothing Jon Snow

The Final Season GoT: s08 e06 The Iron Throne

Discussion in 'Game of Thrones on HBO' started by Michael Torrance, May 14, 2019.

  1. Alexis

    Alexis Soap Chat Champion

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    Jorah? Nope! I liked him a lot but he was too enthralled and in awe of Daenerys to be king. He only wanted to serve her.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Emelee

    Emelee Soap Chat Star

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    Baratheons lead the kingdom Storm's End. Gendry Baratheon was made Lord of Storm's End by Daenerys only this last season. He was a bastard before that.

    Greyjoys lead the Iron Islands. Yara is the new Queen over there, after Euron was killed by Jaime.

    Robin Arryn is the Lord of the Vale.

    There's a new leader in Dorne, but I don't know his name.


    The 7 Kingdoms, when created all those years ago, were:
    • Kingdom of the North, ruled by House Stark of Winterfell, the Kings in the North.
    • Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale, ruled by House Arryn of the Eyrie, the Kings of the Mountain and the Vale.
    • Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers, ruled by House Hoare of Harrenhal, the Kings of the Isles and the Rivers.
    • Kingdom of the Rock, ruled by House Lannister of Casterly Rock, the Kings of the Rock.
    • Kingdom of the Stormlands, ruled by House Durrandon of Storm's End, the Storm Kings.
    • Kingdom of the Reach, ruled by House Gardener of Highgarden, the Kings of the Reach.
    • Principality of Dorne, ruled by House Martell of Sunspear, the Princes of Dorne. Note that being referred to as a principality was purely stylistic; Dorne was an independent kingdom in all but name
     
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  3. Michael Torrance

    Michael Torrance Soap Chat Dream Maker

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    Way back before HBO had even thought about “Game of Thrones,” George R.R. Martin had gone online to post about two endings he thought were bad, one being “Lost,” and the other “Battlestar Galactica.” Yet all bad endings are not created equal.

    “Battlestar Galactica” had an ending that was not consistent with the show’s entire run, an uplifting finale for a dark and gritty four-year run. And it answered some mysteries in a silly way, while ignoring some others. But all the major issues and mysteries were resolved. We got completion to characters’ arcs. When one goes back to watch the show again (and trust me, I have) the ending takes nothing away from the amazing earlier seasons.

    “Lost,” on the other hand, had an ending that undid the whole fabric of the show. It was the writers telling the audience all of the previous six seasons were a Dallas dream moment, fresh out of the shower. It didn’t matter that the answers were hackneyed or many were never resolved—what mattered was the show telling us that we should not have invested in these characters because, guess what, they were dead.

    So, “The Iron Throne” is certainly not a bad “Lost” moment. So many fans have taken to imdb to trash the episode, even as it broke ratings records--as did “The Bells.” Yet as they say, the opposite of love is not hate, it is apathy. If people really did not care for the ending, they would not try to discredit it even as they were watching it maniacally. “Lost” did not just go out with a plot whimper, but a ratings one as well. GoT did anything but.

    If one had told us how the show would end in summary form (“Bran ends up on the throne; Sansa leads an independent North; Jon Snow returns to the Night’s Watch after killing Daenerys, who goes mad with power”) none of it would sound far-fetched or even contradictory to what the show had established. One funny comment has been “why still have a Night’s Watch now that there is no army of the dead”—except for millennia there had been no army of the dead. Ned Stark executed a poor young man in the first episode (and made me wish him dead for the following eight, cheering when he was decapitated) because he told them he had seen the Others--as called in the book, decades before “Lost.” And with a mile-high wall, no wildings could invade either, so that was never their purpose. It was kind of a monastic exile for millennia.

    The problem, of course, was how we got there. Benioff and Weiss proved that without George R.R. Martin’s books, they focused on spectacle over character, and action over nuance. In season 7, people moved around Westeros as if they were on a Concorde. In season 8, the characters’ 180 degree turns acquired the same speed. The decision to have a total of 13 episodes to cover these events proved unwise—in some the pacing was crazy slow (most of the talky “The Iron Throne” for instance) and in others breakneck frenetic (“The Last Stark,” “The Bells”). And sometimes continuity went out the window—like Arya riding away from King’s Landing on a white-horse-out-of-nowhere in episode 5 and being back in the city in episode 6. Now, don’t get me wrong: if it were that easy to finish this story in a satisfying way, George R.R. Martin would have done it already. But they needed to have worked on plausibility and details more. One obvious example is how easy (and without reloading!) the Iron Fleet was able to take out a dragon in episode 4, but they could not even fire a scorpion twice in a row in episode 5. But instead, they decided “we need to make Daenerys feel vulnerable,” and even that was not explored enough on screen. Daenerys had to have a scene where she explains that she needs to bring the pain to the people of King’s Landing unless they rise up against Cercei—that she needs to be, as Olenna Tyrell had said “a dragon, not a sheep” (imagine if she had mentioned that in a sentence). But, alas, the show did not bother to connect the dots. We had to fill in too many blanks to make sense of the actions—something alluded to by actors as well, such as Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, who found it hard to explain his character’s sudden reversion to season 1 after 7 seasons of growth.

    Additionally, there are some plots that ended up going nowhere—in the end, it mattered not at all that Jon Snow was Aegon Targaryen the VI. It was a red herring. But the books are full of them (including a fake Aegon). Kinvara’ prophesy about Daenerys was wrong—but Melisandre was a serial wrong prophet. And why did Beric keep coming back? Probably because, as is usual with Gods, people attribute to them both their evil and wondrous deeds. So, the end was not equal to the amazing run of the show, but it certainly did not undo the show. Will watching the entire show again provide pleasure? I think so, actually. And if it does, that is what matters for the finale. Re-watching is the ultimate test of an ending, making the show a full circle if satisfactory, making it a vicious one if it proves a failure of an ending.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  4. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    That's completely different from the last season of LOST that I watched.


    They were all dead at the church - the final scene of LOST. That didn't imply they were dead all through the seasons, but more about how they all died at different times and then met up in the afterlife.
     
  5. Michael Torrance

    Michael Torrance Soap Chat Dream Maker

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    if that was only the last scene, then what was the whole season about, and the alternate universes?
     
  6. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    There were two stories running side by side. One was the survivors and their last days on the island, while the other (flash side-ways) was how they would eventually cross paths if they had never crashed onto the island. The last scene in the church was them coming together. I never got any impression they were dead all along.
     
  7. Michael Torrance

    Michael Torrance Soap Chat Dream Maker

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    From wikipedia, based on Lindelof and Cuse interviews:

    "For different reasons, Jack and the Man in Black both use Desmond to extinguish the light at the heart of the island. The island starts disintegrating, but The Man in Black is also made mortal. Still desperate to escape, The Man in Black fights Jack and mortally wounds him, but with help from Kate, Jack kills him. Realizing his destiny, Jack sacrifices himself to relight the heart of the island, so his friends can escape on the Ajira plane. Hurley takes Jack's place as protector of the island and makes Ben the new advisor. The flash sideways is revealed to be a type of limbo, or holding pattern, for the main characters, where they reside until accepting their life and death, and are then able to "let go" and "move on" together."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_(season_6)
     
  8. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    Yeah, and?

    I'm not sure what you're saying :lol: Where does it say they were dead all along, or that it was all a dream?
     
  9. Michael Torrance

    Michael Torrance Soap Chat Dream Maker

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    let me re-paste:
    "The flash sideways is revealed to be a type of limbo, or holding pattern, for the main characters, where they reside until accepting their life and death, and are then able to "let go" and "move on" together."
    I am pretty sure you have to be dead to be in limbo.
    I didn't say it was a dream, but a "Dallas dream moment," a horrible twist that invalidates the viewer experience. If you liked it, that is your prerogative. I am more resistant to such.
     
  10. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    The flash sideways was part of the final season - I understood it that this was an alternative look at their lives, had they not crashed onto the island. Again, not sure where you get all of the previous six seasons comment from when the flash sideways were part of the final season


    From your comment here.

    I took it that you are saying the writers telling the audience all of the previous six seasons were a Dallas dream moment. Because you quoted DALLAS, I'm going to assume you're implying that LOST was all a dream. As far as I'm aware, the DALLAS dream is about one full season of a show that used a dream to wipe out a seasons worth of stories.


    Back to this comment. Yeah, I agree you have to be dead to be in limbo, but I never got it that they were dead as you implied here.

    They didn't die until the end, they were alive on the island, they were alive until they died, all at different points in time.

    What was the twist?
     
  11. Michael Torrance

    Michael Torrance Soap Chat Dream Maker

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    No, it wasn't all a dream. But we watched a whole season in limbo. Of course every single character in every single show will eventually die. But is your show one about the afterlife? Or had you been trying to give other explanations all along, from the numbers sequence to the (ridiculous) frozen donkey wheel? With this limbo twist in the final season, and the very last scene being all of them in the afterlife, the show made a joke of the previous five years. That was the Dallas reference. Dallas erased one season. Lost erased five. These years didn't matter. It wasn't that kind of a show, we found out. You were watching a "Touched by an Angel" spin-off disguised as a modern "Twilight Zone" (including the intro theme).
     
  12. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    All in all, LOST was a fantasy sci-fi drama that had all kinds of twists, strange oddities, mysterious and weird stories. From time travel to teleportation, smoke monsters to polar bears, there was/is plenty to pick at and call it ridiculous. I loved the whole journey and have enjoyed binge-watching it twice, I'm happy to get lost in all the mythology and sure, there are stories within the series that I didn't enjoy, or that I thought was too far 'out there' but then I remind myself that it is just a fantasy show.
     
  13. Christine

    Christine Soap Chat Active Member

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    Michael Torrance, I can't believe that I still have to explain the Lost ending after 9 years.
    Everything that happened throughout the 6 seasons of Lost actually did happen. No dream and no, they were not dead all along.
    In season 6 we have the flash sideways, our Losties are dead in those stories, it's sort of a purgatory. Everything else that is happening in season 6 is real. So why do you think seasons 1-5 didn't matter?

    I thought Lost had a perfect ending. It just seems that most viewers simply didn't get it.
    I remember something George R.R. Martin said 9 ys ago, about the Lost finale: "I just hope I won't screw up my ending". What I would like to tell him is that a screwed up ending is better than no ending at all. I don't think he's ever going to end his book series.
    So I think he should really stop criticizing other writers endings.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
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  14. Michael Torrance

    Michael Torrance Soap Chat Dream Maker

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    The fact that audiences didn't get its supposed "perfect" ending is for me proof enough that it was a terrible ending. If the writers write for themselves and not their audience, their show is in trouble. I know there are some people who love it--there are some now, and there were some then. But it has gone down in TV history as one of the biggest failures of an ending, and in my opinion for good reason(s)--which I have mentioned.

    Somebody who, like me, did use to like Lost's early seasons and found the last season utterly dumb and ridiculous is here

    https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/lost-was-the-best-before-it-was-the-worst-1635804502
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  15. Christine

    Christine Soap Chat Active Member

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    I can't agree with that.
    After 8 seasons of Game of Thrones I realized that I don't even know the names of the 7 kingdoms. I have talked to other people since the finale and no-one really knows. Book readers are likely to know this, I suppose.
    So...is this terrible writing just because I might have been a lazy viewer at times? I don't think so, it just proves that I must have been mind absent at times.
     
  16. Michael Torrance

    Michael Torrance Soap Chat Dream Maker

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    If the writers believed it was important to know, they would have made sure you did. You can't compare a detail that is not integral to the arc to a whole season, a gimmick that lasted a whole season (flash sideways) and a widely negatively received and disappointing ending.
     
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  17. Christine

    Christine Soap Chat Active Member

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    I guess we have to agree to disagree.
    I will defend the Lost ending until the day I die :D
     
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  18. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    LOST is a fantastic show with more rich characters than I've seen in any other show. Its mystery, its mythology, its ability to suck me in with every twist and turn makes it what it is for me.

    I sometimes feel sorry for those who missed the point or just couldn't take the fantasy for what it was, but hey, that's life. :D

    The fact many people still want to moan about it years after it finished shows just how fascinating it all was.

    2s1rwyg.jpg
     
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  19. Alexis

    Alexis Soap Chat Champion

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    God I was so wound up and on edge when LOST was coming to an end. I Remember I stayed at my cousin/best friends house that night and we got up at stupid o'clock to watch it live on SKY. I thought it was pretty wonderful. But I was just relieved it was all over. I had been a nut job watching the show. Sure somethings weren't explained but in life some things aren't explained, and both LOST and GOT are very far removed from real life. They are both fantasy shows. I enjoyed the ride, I enjoyed the yarn. I enjoyed both endings. Everyone watching doesn't want the same ending, so the writers have to just go with what they had planned.

    I thought GOT's finale was very much in tone with the rest of the show.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  20. Michael Torrance

    Michael Torrance Soap Chat Dream Maker

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    Yeah, I understand that, and of course I am fine with it. Frankly, most of forum posts are people disagreeing with each other, and when done following decorum (as here), it is good.

    And as I have said before, people are entitled to their wrong opinions (or feelings) :D

    As for talking about it after all this time, it is similar to the reason we talk about the shower scene in Dallas and the dream resolution still: infamy.

    And that infamy is also the reason Damon Lindelof "promises you his new won't end like Lost"
    https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/01/...of-leftovers-lost.html?hpw&rref=magazine&_r=0
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
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