Homophobic bakers lose 'gay cake' appeal.

Discussion in 'Headline News' started by Mel O'Drama, Oct 25, 2016.

  1. Toni

    Toni Soap Chat TV Fanatic

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    ...So should I assume they won´t be making cakes of Miss Piggy because she is such a big gay icon...?

    upload_2016-10-26_16-17-26.jpeg
    PS: Someone should give those two a couple of T-shirts with the legend "I am with a closeted gay"!!

    [​IMG] upload_2016-10-26_16-23-13.jpeg
     
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  2. Gabriel Maxwell

    Gabriel Maxwell Soap Chat Well-Known Member

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    No, they treated their customers disgracefully. They are not allowed to decline serving a member of the general public on the basis of religious belief. The Bible is inferior to the law.

    No one is as good at taking offence, i.e. playing victim, i.e. suggesting they're being persecuted, as religious conservatives, who seem to think their belief system is superior to the law and their religion gives them the right to discriminate against the others.

    They're basically complaining about being discriminated against by not being allowed to discriminate against the others.

    You can practice your religion at home. But you can't use it in business which is governed by the law, especially when you're serving the general public. Religious people can not have a privileged status within society. The law must provide equal protection - and obligation - for all.

    I read your post and I see no explanation why you think the decision is ludicrous. You're simply saying it is. But, why? On the basis of what? On the basis of "because it is"? If so, that would mirror religious approach to life.

    No facts or reason, just blindly following a doctrine that someone came up with once upon a time, a long, long ago. And that should be the basis of how we govern business in the 21st century? I don't think so.

    And how do you not see the Pandora's box allowing these people to discriminate against their customers would open up? Christianity is not the only religion in the world. If they are allowed to bring their religion into business, then anyone with any other irrational belief can do so as well.

    Exactly. If they are not comfortable baking a cake for anyone who wants it, then they shouldn't be in that business. No one is forcing them to do what they do.

    And that's the icing on the cake. On top of being bigots, they're bad at doing business.
     
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  3. Willie Oleson

    Willie Oleson drilling for soap

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    I've always had mixed feelings about this story, although the reality stuff as described in the OP doesn't sit with me very well. But I've never thought highly of reality whores.
    The first time I heard about this story I thought, well, this is an unfortunate situation about two bakers who don't believe in Gay Love but - life is full of surprises! - one day they were asked to bake a Gay Cake.
    They didn't strike me as people who used their business as a trap, hoping that some day someone would ask them to bake a gay cake, just so they could say: "No! We refuse to bake that cake! Ha-ha! Victory!"
    I know that discrimination cannot be tolerated under any circumstances and that there are laws to prevent that (in some countries anyway) but personally I think I would have just walked away. I'd rather not buy a cake from someone who believes I will burn in hell for being gay, as they would probably spit in it, or worse.
    But how can you decide for someone else what they should or shouldn't want (to do)?
    And they're not forcing anyone to use their service.

    Blatantly refusing service to customers is a risk, and so they take the consequences. I do feel sorry for the gay couple since it's always hard to be confronted with discrimination.
    Thankfully I've never experienced anything like that, however I've experienced a lot of rude service. Or when they try to trick me into buying something I don't want, or something that looks hideous on me.
    And then I ask myself, why are these customer-unfriendly people even in this business? They clearly hate every minute of it. They hate me. Being there.
    At least the bakers enjoy baking their cakes (but I hope no-one buys them, at least I wouldn't. Unless they're really really good).

    I'm not a practicing Catholic, but if someone would ask me to bake a "(some other) God Rules!" cake, then I would refuse to do so. Of course I would lie about the reason because I don't feel like I have to make a stand. But I would like to have the right to refuse to manufacture-on-demand. It may ruin my business, but that's my problem.

    And please don't waste those precious eggs on homophobic people.
     
  4. Alexis

    Alexis Soap Chat Winner

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    That's not what happened. Ashers accepted the order to make the cake and it was paid for then they at some point afterwards decided to contact the customer and tell them that couldn't make the cake on religious grounds.
     
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  5. Gabriel Maxwell

    Gabriel Maxwell Soap Chat Well-Known Member

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    They decided to serve the public. Not the other way around. So, either they do it or they don't do it. You can't obtain a business license to make a profit in the service industry by providing service to the general public and then cherry pick who you're going to serve. It's ridiculous.

    But it's fun in a sitcom. Good ole Patsy :D :

     
  6. Willie Oleson

    Willie Oleson drilling for soap

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    Or perhaps they decided to bake cakes and sell them to the public.
    Depends on how you define "can't". Can't, as in, illegal - then it's simply not possible. Can't, as in, ridiculous, then it's possible. But bad for business, I reckon.

    I don't know what the rules and laws are regarding this issue.
    Is it possible to start a bakery, bake a thousand cakes, put the "open" sign on the door and then tell every single customer that "my cakes are not for sale"?
    I mean, technically, they're still my cakes. Can the law force me to sell them? Or fix the prices? What if I decide to just give them away for free?
     
  7. Gabriel Maxwell

    Gabriel Maxwell Soap Chat Well-Known Member

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    Once they obtained a business license and became a profit making organization - it's the same thing. They are serving the general public. You can't enjoy the benefits of being granted a business license (i.e. being allowed to run a business and make a profit), while at the same time discriminating against certain members of the general public you requested to serve.

    Businesses, i.e. suppliers of goods and services, have a duty to treat all potential customers with equal consideration.

    Since the 1970s several laws have been passed in the EU countries (including the UK and Ireland) banning businesses from discriminating against would-be customers on the grounds of sex, race and disability, later (in the 2000s) those laws were extended to include sexual orientation, religion, age, occupation, etc.

    What happened here is that a business, which most certainly did have an OPEN sign on the door and did sell cakes to other customers, singled out a specific customer and denied service on the basis of irrational belief which is not a valid reason for differential treatment.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
  8. Willie Oleson

    Willie Oleson drilling for soap

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    So, their action was illegal because they broke the law. It wasn't illegal because you or I or anyone else thought it was ridiculous.
    But even if it was only a matter of doing something ridiculous (rather than illegal), I still think that people have the freedom to be stupid and sabotage their own business.
    Serving the public is one thing, serving the public successfully is something else.
    I don't think they think that their belief is irrational, and it's hard to prove. And their belief isn't illegal, only the fact that they denied service.
    I suppose a valid reason would be if a customer is likely to cause harm to them, other customers or their business, or if there's reason to assume that the customer won't be able to pay for the service.

    Of course it's the seller's decision what he sells (or bakes). To use my own example, I can't deny service to atheists (not that I would do that, but it's just an example) but I can refuse to make an Atheist Wedding Cake.
     
  9. Gabriel Maxwell

    Gabriel Maxwell Soap Chat Well-Known Member

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    That's the only way anything can be illegal, by being against the law. Of course, on top of that, I do have my own opinion which is in line with the anti-discrimination law.

    In other words, you think the anti-discrimination law is wrong and businesses should be allowed to discriminate against any customer they please?

    Does your opinion extend to employees? Because they're also covered by the same law. Should businesses be allowed to ask their employees (or prospective employees) whether they're gay or married and then, for example, nor hire them or fire them for being gay or give them preferential treatment (higher salary, special benefits, etc.) for being representatives of a traditional heterosexual family?

    Religion is irrational belief by definition. I'm sure they don't think so, but they're the ones who have something to prove (and never do) and not the other way around.

    And that's the whole point. They're free to practice whatever they want in their own home, but when they bring that into their business, and they of course always bring it in a discriminatory manner, then there's a problem.

    Yes, those would be valid reasons to refuse service.

    But if you don't have a definitive line of finished products and you, under normal circumstances, allow almost all of your customers to order a custom-made product, by refusing to fulfil a certain order you are effectively refusing service to the specific customers who placed that order.
     
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  10. Willie Oleson

    Willie Oleson drilling for soap

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    No-one should be allowed to discriminate anyone, and that's why we have the anti-discrimination law. I never contested that. But I was confused by your "they shouldn't be in business" comment. Because should/shouldn't is an optional situation. Illegal practice is not.
    But I think we've sorted that part of the discussion.
    I disagree. Refusing to fulfil a certain order and refusing to service a specific customer altogether are two different things. That customer would still be able to buy/order, just not that particular product.
    What would you do if someone asked for a cake with a Nazi cross topping, or the face of Hitler, or "God does not exist" or "I don't support gay marriage"?
    I would refuse to make these cakes but I wouldn't refuse to sell them any of the other cakes. Therefore I'm not discriminating the customer.
    There's no such thing as irriational belief. The whole point of believing is that you believe something without having or wanting proof.
    It may result in irrational practice, like this cake-drama.
     
  11. Gabriel Maxwell

    Gabriel Maxwell Soap Chat Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that banned anyway?

    I can believe Donald Trump will lose the US elections because the polls indicate he's headed for defeat. I could be wrong, but my belief is based upon rational elements and there is likelihood it will come true.

    If however I believe Jesus Christ, who died almost 2000 years ago, got resurrected and will be coming back soon and those who oppose God will suffer his wrath and burn in hell for all eternity - that's irrational belief.
     
  12. Willie Oleson

    Willie Oleson drilling for soap

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    Maybe, but my point was that, if certain instructions how to make the cake would offend me (for whatever reason), I should have the right to refuse that particular order.
    In this case it has nothing to do with the customer.
    Aren't we entitled to have boundaries?
    Let's take another example: Does a prostitute have to do everything because the customer wants to?
    Where does it end?
    Belief isn't rational, and for that reason it can't be irrational either. Religion can be damaging and dangerous, but that's another topic.
    If I would say: I know that smurfs exist, then you can disagree with me, and probably prove that my statement is incorrect/irrational.
    But if truly believe that smurfs exist eventhough I've never seen one, then there's nothing you can do to change that. My faith is real, not the smurfs.
     
  13. Alexis

    Alexis Soap Chat Winner

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    The point of it is religion isn't above the law. There are so many religions and they all have different and sometimes strange view points. If we let religion be above the law people could just do as they please and use religion as an excuse. Which is what the owners of Ashers did. They are bigots and they used religion as a screen for their bigotry. They judged a gay couple (and basically all gays) and they found them to be wrong -sinful, to be somehow unworthy of services. There is no end to that, anyone who isn't the same religion as them can potentially be refused service. As they would worship a different God to them, so that would be blasphemous. Where does that end? Can they refuse to make a cake celebrating a Jewish wedding anniversary? That could be contradictory to their own very personal beliefs. Would they deem a happy divorce cake to be suitable? The bible says that divorce is wrong and sinful? How about a Scientology cake? Or one to mark the final transition of a transsexual?
    They do not have the right to discriminate! That is what they did and the law found them to be at fault. TWICE.

    It's a cake. A perishable item! It has a very limited shelf life and is going to be consumed in a matter of days. Do the owners of Ashers think God would be affronted by a cake? They take the bible very seriously, but where in the bible does it say that that God isn't in support of gay marriage? God remains as usual, rather tight lipped on the subject.
     
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  14. Willie Oleson

    Willie Oleson drilling for soap

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    God doesn't talk with his mouth full. (and he loves Gay Cake!)

     
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  15. Gabriel Maxwell

    Gabriel Maxwell Soap Chat Well-Known Member

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    It most certainly has everything to do with the customer. It is irrelevant that the business would be willing to sell the customer a non-gay cake. That's not what the customer wants. If they are willing to fulfil other people's wishes/orders, but not the wishes of this particular customer, i.e. there is inconsistency in what they are willing to do for their customers based upon their personal religious belief, then they are discriminating against that customer. His order does not break any laws, only the personal belief system of the business, which should have no place in the service industry. If they're not willing to provide service for all, then they should only be baking cakes for themselves and earn their living in a different manner.

    Yes, belief can be irrational if it is completely disconnected from reality and there is absolutely no evidence to support it, as opposed to rational belief which is a logical conclusion based upon available information. But, that's completely beside the point.

    Rational or irrational, religious doctrine and the guidelines that its followers are supposed to abide by - such as stoning cheating women to death and not eating shrimp, but of course they prefer to ignore those and cherry pick homosexuality - have zero place in business and service to the general public.
     
  16. Alexis

    Alexis Soap Chat Winner

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    And that's it... Christians always trot out the "fact" that homosexuality is wrong and sin, because the bible says so, but there is no hierarchy of a sin. Why is homosexuality deemed to be worse than adultery, eating shrimp or wearing a shirt made of two cloths?
    The answer is because it has nothing to do with God or religion, it's that Christian's own personal bigotry and homophobia seeping through and being masked by God. And that is the real sin here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
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  17. McGarrett

    McGarrett Guest

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    Yay.. Now everyone can have gay cake..
     
  18. Mel O'Drama

    Mel O'Drama Super Moderator Staff Member

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  19. Sarah

    Sarah Super Moderator Staff Member Original Member Since 1998

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  20. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    I feel that towards anyone who supports these too.
     
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