Leaving Neverland

Discussion in 'Documentaries' started by Richard Channing, Mar 3, 2019.

  1. Karin Schill

    Karin Schill Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Well my first post was made in reference to the trailer and subject matter of the documentary. My second as a reply to you since you quoted me.
    Otherwise I have refrained from commenting in this thread since I have not watched the documentary yet. It is not broadcasted in Sweden until in the upcoming week. So although I have read all of your posts in this thread I have refrained from commenting. I like Oprah so I will watch the interview, but figured it would be better to wait until after I had watched the documentary.

    However if anyone is interested in learning more about Michael Jackson I can recommend a biography written by Randy Taraborelli called "The magic, the madness and the whole story" . I read it several years ago and it shed some light on several things that I had no clue about before. Until I read that book I thought his marriage to Debbie Rowe was a real one. But it wasn't.
     
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  2. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    That's fine and I look forward to reading your comments once you've watched it.


    However, it's comments like these that I find troublesome.



    It came across to me that you wouldn't believe anything from the documentary if you had watched it. That because he's such a big icon, there is no way he would do these crimes.
     
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  3. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    This whole thread reminds me of the Jimmy Saville thread in the Lounge and how so many people were defending Saville because he came across so well on TV and did lots for charity.

    It was a fascinating thread.
     
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  4. Alexis

    Alexis Soap Chat Warrior

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    Well the victims could achieve closure. So there's that.
    But you don't want to hear about it because you are a fan of the accused abuser?
    This is basically what Leaving Neverland is about.
    Lots of abuse victims don't feel able to come forward about abuse while the abuser is still around. I guess it goes back to childhood fears and torments that never leave the victim. That's bad enough if the abuser was Joe Bloggs down the road. Imagine if it was someone who was an international pop icon. A man with unlimited money and resources. A man with the mightiest legal team available to anyone.
    I don't think either of them wanted to tell their story to be famous or infamous. They told their story to tell the truth. To let the world know the truth. That Michael Jackson was a paedophile. It's not positive for you, because you don't want to believe it, or even bother to give the benefit of doubt. People hating them, or not believing them is really not important. They got it out, off their chest, they spoke their truth. They did all they could, finally.
    But they aren't just those poor boys that MJ abused. They are also brave strong men who faced the world and told them the truth. MJ's legacy isn't ruined. His fans are doing the most to ensure that. Even if it was ruined, that would have been MJ's own doing. Not the victims of his abuse. Don't place that on them too!
    They lied under oath at the trial. They admit that, and they wouldn't be the first abuse victim to lie under oath. Sometimes abuse victims even testify via video link so as to not have to actually be in the same room as the accused so they are not intimidated into giving false testimony.
    The first time they were still little kids and manipulated into lying by MJ. In not watching the documentary you just are not understanding the manipulation and conflicted feelings the boys had. They were weirdly in love with MJ while being abused. It wasn't like he cornered them and raped them. They were seduced into thinking it was some kind of relationship. They even felt jealous when Jackson started seeing another boy. They were jealous that he had a new favourite, it's all very complicated and sad. Once they were in on the lie there was no going back. They felt they had to protect Jackson. He'd done so much for them, they couldn't betray him. Again, his legacy isn't really important in the context of things. All the money and fame imaginable has already been mined from Jackson's legacy. And he's not here anymore. Those who like his music will still play it.
    Then you have missed the point entirely. I couldn't even tell you who the director is. I'd argue most people who watched couldn't.
    What has been gained by this is closure for the boys that were abused and knowledge to those who heard their story.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
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  5. Richard Channing

    Richard Channing Soap Chat Star

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    I was very surprised to find the whole documentary was posted on YouTube the day after it aired. So for anyone who hasn't seen it and wants to, here it is:



     
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  6. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    I dread to think what the comments section looks like on these two pages.
     
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  7. Richard Channing

    Richard Channing Soap Chat Star

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    I'm off to have a look! :D
     
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  8. James from London

    James from London Soap Chat Mega Star

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  9. pete lashmar

    pete lashmar Soap Chat Fan

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    I feel like I'm on a rollercoatser, I've done more reviewing, read more court transcripts and watched more videos and I have to say Jackson's behaviour is exceptionally questionable. But I cannot, from evidence available find him guilty of child abuse.

    The Jordy Chandler drawing being true if utterly wrong, it wasn't a match, and you really have to look into the facts both of the drawing and whether he was circumcised. The only image of the drawing appeared in a fictional book and nobody knows if that was the genuine drawing or not, Incidentally, Jordy hasn't seen his parents for at least 11 years. Child Porn and was never found at Neverland - Penthouse and other similar publications were, but nothing that involved S&M, brutality etc. Art books, that contained hundreds of pages were exhibited in court, but none of them were classified as pornographic.

    Brandi Jackson, Michael's niece, who receives nothing from the estate, has gone on record stating wade is a liar and a cheat after dating him for 9 or more years. She claims that wade's mum calle her and wanted custody of Michael's Children after he died - "They'd be better with her than Katherine (Jackson's mum).

    45 minutes has already been cut from repeat viewing of the documentary because people involved in certain aspects have said the timelines do not match.

    There is so much online - there is so much to review - it's not who said what or who did that - FACTS are available and I freely admit I've been yes he did/no he didn't - the more you delve, the more you find.

    I'm not saying that a 30+ year old man sleeping in beds with children is right - it most certainly isn't - but FFS, there are so many wrongs facts and information out there...but we'll never know for sure.
     
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  10. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    I'm trying to wrap my head around what kind of evidence were you expecting to find on the Internet?


    What facts are available on the Internet?

    How are you able to know what is right or wrong about the facts you've found?
     
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  11. pete lashmar

    pete lashmar Soap Chat Fan

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    It's a very naive attitude to dismiss court evidence and evidence that disproves tabloid headlines. There are tons of court documents available online. There are taped phone calls, video footage of Neverland.

    The very fact that hardcore pornography which included children's heads stuck onto naked models is completely and utterly false - other than Penthouse/Playboy magaine nothing more sinister was found - but it made great headlines and people automatically believed it.

    The wealth of material online is incredible and none of it points to Jackson being guilty of anything.
     
  12. Angela Channing

    Angela Channing World Cup of Soaps Moderator

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    The director ends his article saying "Why has it taken 30 years for Jackson to be unmasked? Here in the UK we were all asking the same question after Jimmy Savile." The difference is that Jimmy Saville was never prosecuted whereas Michael Jackson was and found not guilty. The jury sat through months of evidence and cleared him off all the counts he was charged on. So to answer his question, I won't accept Michael Jackson is an abuser because I believe that if a jury is given all the facts they will come up with the correct verdict and a one sided documentary doesn't change my opinion.
     
  13. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    I'm not dismissing anything, I'm simply curious what you've found. I didn't know you could find evidence from court cases online, or if they are credible or not.

    Where, how dod you find them? Do you have links?

    I've never heard of any of this, it wasn't discussed in the documentary.
     
  14. Angela Channing

    Angela Channing World Cup of Soaps Moderator

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    There is absolutely no physical evidence that proves the allegations of abuse so it all comes down to who people choose to believe. I'm happy to accept that the jury fairly assessed the credibility of the witnesses they heard and based their not guilty verdict on that.
     
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  15. James from London

    James from London Soap Chat Mega Star

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    Having served on a jury (not that there's anything special about that!), I wouldn't say that's always the case, but I'm happy to agree to differ.
     
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  16. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    Is it not possible that someone found not guilty of a crime could actually be guilty?


    Have you watched the documentary? One of the guys who testified as a child said he wasn't abused by Michael Jackson because he didn't think he was abused by Michael and also Michael had told the boy that if anyone found out he would go to jail.

    Can you see that this changes things from the original case?
     
  17. Ome

    Ome Admin

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    What about what the guys are saying now, some 25 years later?
     
  18. pete lashmar

    pete lashmar Soap Chat Fan

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    Here is a link with court transcripts for the entire trial, it also has lots of other information on the Chandler case and other things. However, as it's a webpage in support of Jackson I would urge anyone to look elsewhere too if you find anything that you question. You Tube has lots of videos that look through the various cases and charges etc - including information on Wade & Jimmy.

    Incidentally, i would urge anyone to listen to the interview with Bradi Jackson, who dated Wade for 9+ years as it's hugely informative and available on you tube too.

    https://innocentproject.michaeljackson.news/
     
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  19. pete lashmar

    pete lashmar Soap Chat Fan

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    Wade states that he didn't realise he had been abused until his son was born - yet he testified in support of Jackson when he was 21/22 - and had had numerous relationships with women since he was 14 years old - so I just don't buy that.

    Just 2 years before he filed his abuse charges (that were thrown out of court) he was desperate to directed the Cirque De Soliel show, it was only when he didn't get that job he realised he'd been abused.
     
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  20. Angela Channing

    Angela Channing World Cup of Soaps Moderator

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    I work in the criminal justice system (not that there's anything special about that either!) and I've presented evidence to juries on scores of occasions and although I don't always agree with verdicts, my experience is that jurors take their role seriously and reach conclusions based on the facts of the case. In the case of Michael Jackson's trial, I didn't listen through months of testimony so I don't know as many of the details of the case as did the jury which is why I'm happy to accept their findings. People can disagree but at the very least there is a credible case that Michael Jackson was not guilty.
     
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